Team Tiers

Mo · Post by Mo » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:36 pm

I'm in favour of encouraging team diversity at tournaments and like the idea of giving bonus skills and/or a slight TR bonus to lower tiers. I really like the way the Canadian DeathBowl tourney does a theme year with a special package of bonuses and prizes for that year's theme teams to encourage low-end teams -- Year of the Halfling, Year of the Ogre, etc.

I'm only concerned with tiers for tournament use. And around these parts, that's low TR. (As a tournament organiser myself, I wouldn't want to have to double check high TR rosters. Too many complications and time delays.)

Especially with more teams now, I think it's more helpful to think in terms of 4 tiers instead of 3. The range in the middle can use the additional fine-tuning. I like Ironjaw's list. What Galak calls 'lower end of Tier 1' really are in a lower class.

Looking at the current LRB5 stats as of this writing on DoubleSkulls stats page http://naf.doubleskulls.net/lrb5.html -- I'd start looking at 4 tiers like this:
Tier 1 -- 49% and up (12 out of 24 teams)
Tier 2 -- 41-48% (Khemri, Necro, High Elves, Humans, Slann)
Tier 3 -- 30-40% (Chaos, Nurgle, Vamps, Underworld)
Tier 4 -- 29% and down (Ogres, Goblins, Flings)

Regardless of the exact cutoff points for win rates, Tier 1 can be established as the top 12 (50% of the) teams. Barring major boosts and/or nerfs in the future, the lowest tier is fixed at the bottom 3. The question then, is what is reasonable assesment of the 9 teams in the middle? The gulf between the top 12 and the bottom 3 is a big one.

Khemri are right on the edge, but since the Mum-Ras are picking up a nerf in 6.0, I think it works counting them lower than Tier 1. The 3 new teams might slide around a bit as more results come in for them -- Slann are right on the edge between upper or lower middle group right now.

--Mo

Infernarl · Post by **Infernarl** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:41 pm

when people cite a win% what pool of data are they referring to?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:20 pm

Usually from one of 3 sources:

1) Plasmoid's LRB 5.0 research: http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB5Stats.htm
(this is the main one and the one used by the BBRC last year for the rules review)

2) Ian Williams wonderful NAF tournament database for LRB 5.0:
http://naf.doubleskulls.net/lrb5.html

3) The last is the MBBL which is an online LRB 5.0 league (which is the oldest BBRC new rules testing league as they go all the way back to being one of the 3 test leagues used to create LRB 1.0 and have helped give data to every LRB since)
http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/?show=RaceStats

Galak

Lycos · Post by **Lycos** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:02 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:2) Ian Williams wonderful NAF tournament database for LRB 5.0:
http://naf.doubleskulls.net/lrb5.html

Note that is not up to date... last update was 20 March 09 and there are something like 3000 games to be added to that.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:45 pm

Also note that when talking about these "victory percentages" ties count as half a win.
(Like in the NFL, and unlike soccer, where a tie is only worth one third of a win)

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:04 pm

ianwilliams wrote:
Joemanji wrote:I thought Humans had a win ratio just over 45%? Which would put them firmly in Ian's tier 2 (correctly IMO).
Galak's ranges are what we discussed - however humans are at the bottom end of tier 1 so may need a boost if we ever get to LRB7.

Ironjaw/Pippy - this has little to do with tournament play which is biased to low TV performance. Also tournaments (and res tournaments in particular) are house rules. So if tournaments have balance problems because of their house rules then we can't fix it!

So more its looking at what the teams do over a large range of TVs.

Ian - I think the new Diving Catch may be a sufficient boost for Humans in a league setting. I am playing Humies in our league (full roster, but no Ogre) - so far they are 7/1/1.

funnyfingers · Post by **funnyfingers** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:32 pm

Tier 1: Chaos Dwarf, Dwarf, Wood Elves, Skaven, Norse, Lizardmen, Orc, Undead, Amazon

Tier 2: Chaos, Human, Khemri, Pact, Slann, Dark Elves, High Elves, Nurgle, Necromantic, Pro Elves

Tier 3: Halflings, Gobbos, Vamps, Ogres, Underworld

I like this tiering for the most part. I need the tiers to figure out how to allow coaches put enter a minimum of 5 teams in a draw and give each coach a bonus to the rating when they submit a diverse group of teams.

Do you think if 5 different teams were submitted and at least one from each of these tiers were chosen you would get good matches from it?

Is there any other tiering system that may suit my needs better?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:34 pm

I'd work on splitting the teams up more than that

like the groups that were suggested for my idea regarding eurobowl races

http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/vie ... hp?t=26508

funnyfingers · Post by **funnyfingers** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:40 pm

This one?:
Group A Undead, Woodies, Dwarves
Group B Skaven, Orcs , Lizards
Group C Norse, Amazon, Chaos Dwarves
Group D Khemri, Dark Elves, Necromantic
Group E High Elves, Elves, Human
Group F Nurgle, Chaos, Slann
Group G Underworld, Vampire, Chaos Pact
Group H Ogres, Halflings, Goblins

What are your thoughts? A minimum of 5 teams and enter only 1 from each of these groups in the draw? If that is the case, I think it would be a little restrictive. I need something that doesn't turn anyone off or force their pick too much.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:01 pm

The ELF categories from FUMBBL might not be a bad idea, maybe reward coaches if their teams cover at least four of the five categories.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:38 pm

you don't have to force anything, just give them a higher or lower variety score

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:49 pm

If you want to encourage other races in Eurobowl (which seems valid IMO) why not just give countries incentives to use them?

For example, give any race outside "the ten" an extra doubles skill and single skill from the start. Good coaches can get real value from that, and it gives more options on team building. For example, Nurgle could start with Leader and so fit in more players.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:12 pm

this was about stuntyleeg.com not eurobowl, the eurobowl thread is for the eurobowl discussion ;]

Pipey · Post by **Pipey** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:34 pm

For those who haven't seen them, my rules for Monkeybowl next year (link in my signature) have three racial tiers. The teams are grouped based on doubleksulls' LRB5 tournament stats, plus some subjective judgment. Each gets a variable amount of money to spend on the team and on skills.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:42 pm

In my CTR (Copenhagen Tournament Rules) we also had 3 tiers. Tier 2 got 2 bonus skills, tier 2 got 1 bonus skill on top of the classic "1 skill per game + resurrection" format.

Cheers
Martin