Buyer beware

[Wightlord]

mazes_and_monsters (operating on Ebay).
This guy used a picture of a genuine 1st edition Ogre and then sent me a heavily undercoated recast instead.
He claims it was a mistake and he sent the "wrong one", yet 10 days later he still hasn't sent me the real item and is asking for his fake back first.

[Grumbledook]

he has a lot of stuff on there that i thought was a bit suss

[mdb7575]

he's a trader so he is always buying figures and selling them on for profit if he can
problem is he brought a load of 1st edition ogre's off of another seller that this forum discussed a little while back so i think he has ended up with recasts.
no excuse for reselling them and not informing people.
hope you can sort this out

[mubo]

this forum discussed a little while back so i think he has ended up with recasts.
no excuse for reselling them and not informing people.
hope you can sort this out

Previous thread:
viewtopic.php?t=27111&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

First link in that thread I think is what you must have now...
As has been said he buys stuff up and resells.

There's also people selling Chaney and Yoshi Komi on buy it now in quantities, which looks a little suspicious to me.

[Wightlord]

Thanks for that.
He has now agreed to send me the original figure in the photo on ebay, so I'll see what I get.

[Wightlord]

Got the genuine figure today. I was tempted to saw the fake in half so it can't be sold on , but I'll leave that decision to the traders honesty.

[mdb7575]

but I'll leave that decision to the traders honesty.

can't see that happening.
some poor sod will end up with them.
at least the members here will know to avoid, unless there happy to have recasts.

[kwèk]

Second "recast" post I read.
And I don't get it.

From the other fora, I got two points wich were actually making sence:

PS: Who cares?

that's where you are wrong. I would not mind having recasts, but only if I know they are. And I would tell others that my figs are recasts as well.

But there are people who like to have these limited edition figures because they like to collect rare minis. The originals are valueable.

Now imagine, you have an orginal Ogre you want to sell and somebody else is selling his recasts way below the price, but selling them as originals. You get stuck with yours. Wouldn't you feel cheated?

Recasts are of lower quality pretty much without fail though. They don't represent them as being recasts, so they make it far more difficult to find old figures that are good quality. So they recasts sell for more than they do and the real figures sell for less than they should. The only people that win are the recasters themselves. People wanting the real figures risk getting a recast, people wanting recasts pay more than a recast is worth, and people selling real models have their models devalued.

Recasting is bad.

Even after reading them... I dont see the real problem, altough I concur with Dracos idea that the buyer should know that the model is recasted.
Before I continue, pls let me say that I'm talking abouth the models that are out of print and no one is making money off.

First... aren't we all reacting a bit over concerned abouth this entire phenomena? What the guy is doing, is recasting old figures that arent available to the people that are intrested. Some of these items, because they are "rare", are seriously expensive on ebay. Not everyone can buy them, or is willing to pay a ridiculous amount of money for them.

Two... recasts are of poor quality? I had a friend in my local job who did some really good recasts actually. They were as flawed as the original ones. It's not that all figures that are sold to you in a blister are "that good". Thats why you need all the tools to make your mini better before you paint it (not to mention that you could actually glue them together without holes or using to much green stuff).

Tree... Models are extremely valuable? Thats like a magic player talking. Please don't let this hobby go the same way as those money hungering fools. It's bad for the friendly enviorement this hobby has to offer.
We are talking abouth metal that was forged into a model. The price should be "the price for forging" + "the price of the metal" + "a small token of your appreciation towards the guy that helped you getting a model that you needed for your team..." (2 nice beers would do in my case).


We are still discussing a material object right? Not something holy like a magic card? (sorry, couldnt keep it in)
What do we do with these models? We have fun... right?
We go to tournaments, drive 4 hours, spill a lot of gass, eat, drink, sleep, and play 5 to 6 games with our friends from all nations? And why do we do it for? Just the cheer fun off it and having the honour of having a certain title of a tournament somewhere in your region.
It's not that you can win much, somethimes you get a mini, other times you get a fully painted team (wich is probably the most expensive price I know off, that you can get). But most tournaments have nice but small and cheap prices. You never go out there just for the money or the price? Or at least I hope you don't.
What does it matter if a model in your team is a recasted one? As long as you paint it well it will do just as good as anny other model. I never saw bloodbowl as an "investment", and I hope I never will.

The legal idea of the copyright is also pretty much ridiculous for models that are out of print. No one is making money out of them, except for the people who suddenly see them as "rarities" and sell them for a way to high price to people who couldnt get one earlier.
(Or the people that feel "important" or "high and mighty" because they got something no one else has - not something you actually earned, but something you bought -. For those people I would suggest a long good look in the mirror.)

There is also the fact that, and I dare to gamble on this one, most of you guys are hypocrits when it comes to "recasters". I mean, how manny of you have "recasted" software, games, music cds, movies... etc. And most of those things are NOT limited, and are just at your local store. Some of the older movies can be bought for 3$ and still most of us are having them copied.
The only ones who get angry of this busness are the ones that are making money of them. With the old and limited models I fear it's the same thing. I have seen players going to a tournament, getting a model for free, and selling them on Ebay for 50$. You can say it's the buyers own fault... still it has a bad ring to it in my ears.

BUT, and this is a thing where I will back most of you up, I do beleve you should know that the model you are purchasing is indeed a recast. I beleve the buyer has a right to know.
And I also strongly beleve that the proffit on all models (even none recasts) should be friendly instead of a ludicrous amount.

At last I want to thank people that create models, even limited ones, and recast them therselves after seeing that there is a market for them. Specially if they keep the price the same. (I beleve the "pot plant" guy recasted his pot plants two times right? And still sold them for 1,50 a piece.)

Be social, and spread the love!... so that we can all enjoy the game with the team that we pimped and collected from our friends. (and also spread some blood... elf blood)

[Grumbledook]

The legal idea of the copyright is also pretty much ridiculous for models that are out of print.

That is ridiculous, copyright is copyright regardless of if something is still being produced.

[kwèk]

The legal idea of the copyright is also pretty much ridiculous for models that are out of print.

That is ridiculous, copyright is copyright regardless of if something is still being produced.

Thats the narrow minded vieuw.
Lets try to ask ourselves some questions like:

1. If we recast the object, would we be stealing from someone... is someone actually getting hurt our robbed of there money? In case of old models I guess no one is, unless the people who want to sell objects for a way to high amounth of money to there fellow man, in manny ways I see in them bigger thieves then the ones who are actually breaking the copyright.

2. Will these objects ever be reprinted? Would we be stealing from the compagny that has the rights on these products. If so, there would be a problem with it. But in case of old edition blood bowl figures...
I mean, they aren't really recasting the current ranges, and some of the old dated models are nice to have, but arent that well sculped if you look to some of the newer ones. So the chance of getting them recasted verry low.

3. Are we hurting annyone, if they have the copyright or not? The ones wo have the model won't be happy with the recasted one, the one who was searching for a proxy will probably be happy with the one that was forged by an "illegale" caster.


So... what does the coppyright on this product mean?
Should we just let the models die, and be left over to money hungry people who want to make proffit? Or can we have some sense and just make people happy without doing annything wrong.

Laws should be there to protect people, to help them with there society, and to secure there freedome. Are we hurting these rules?

In my opinion "no". But I don't mind if you have another one.
But don't give me crappy stuff like: "It's in the law, and the law is the law". Lot's of things are in the law, in some parts of America the people can have sex in just one position according to the law (the misionary one).

Think for yourself, and question authority! (but try to be reasonable, and listen to reasonable arguements in the process so that you can question your own vieuws as well... don't let a book tell you what to do. Thats what religous people do, and look how manny wars they started)

[Grumbledook]

So by that reasoning what about recasting something that was produced on purpose as a limited edition production and is not going to get cast again?

[kwèk]

So by that reasoning what about recasting something that was produced on purpose as a limited edition production and is not going to get cast again?

Fill in 1, 2 and 3
I come to the same conclussion.

The other people wouldnt have a "real" limited model annyway, they would have a recasted one. All the other people can still brag abouth there "limited real chump of metal" while others are happy with there "not so real chump of metal".

What would be your argument if someone resculpted it? Would you say: no you cant put all your time in that, it has a coppyright. (... and you can buy it... oh, no you cant annymore)

[thechosengobbo]

But don't give me crappy stuff like: "It's in the law, and the law is the law".

Thing is, it IS the law. It's also there to protect small businesses. Businesses Rolljordan in the mini thread. This guy is doing something fantastic for us, and if people start recasting some of the tourney only minis he just made, then he's gonna be in trouble (ESPECIALLY if he's planning on re-casting some stuff he does later on when he gets a little more resource).

Just because GW is a big company we don't like much, doesn't mean it's ok to infringe on their copyright.

EDIT:- Just to answer your questions.

1. Most likely yes. especially if 2 is correct.

2. Maybe. That's why the law is like it is now on this subject.

3. Emotional damage (though anger etc) CAN be claimed for, so can potential financial damage. So yes.

[kwèk]

But don't give me crappy stuff like: "It's in the law, and the law is the law".

Thing is, it IS the law. It's also there to protect small businesses. Businesses Rolljordan in the mini thread. This guy is doing something fantastic for us, and if people start recasting some of the tourney only minis he just made, then he's gonna be in trouble (ESPECIALLY if he's planning on re-casting some stuff he does later on when he gets a little more resource).

Please note that, from the start, I have been disussing models that were labeled : Out of print, limited, promised to never been recasted again.
I don't want to get dealers out of business, I'm not attacking small business like "goblin forge", "impact", "trinity", ... and so on and so on.
I have no problem with people that make models availble to everyone buy asking a price that seems fair according to the market.

So your business will not have much problems, except maybe the frustration that someone is doing something that is called "illegale". But on the other hand, these compagnies will never earn anny money on those projects again because they promised it was a "limited edition" model in there range.
So financially... nothing is wrong, they made there proffit and whent on to other minis to sell.

Just to answer your questions.

1. Most likely yes. especially if 2 is correct.

2. Maybe. That's why the law is like it is now on this subject.

3. Emotional damage (though anger etc) CAN be claimed for, so can potential financial damage. So yes.

And this totally does not make sense.
I mean, the limited edition or old edition is SOLD OUT. Where is the financial loss to this compagnie? The only financial loss is for the people who were hoping to become a compagnie by selling the stuff they got as a present for more money then it's actually worth.

The law has kept people from playing good games for years. Everytime a product gets put out of stock for "financial" reasons a product dies. No one can ever reprint it.
Remeber "supremacy"? Hell I even know some friends who copied every map for Formula Dé. And I'm glad they did so, because there was no chance of buying them annywhere. (Just because they were born a bit too late, or got in the gaming community to slow).

The anger? The emotional stress? Don't you guys have annything important to worry abouth?
Are we talking magic type 1 players, who complaign that someone with a full proxy deck can beat there asses annytime, so they get him expelled from the tournament because he's not using high dollar cards? Even tough the guy has way better tactics then the rich kids who could afford there moxes and lotus?
The day some bloodbowl player starts kicking people because someone did a recast of a mini he had... give him a mirror. Be ashamed.

The compagnies could be a bit frustrated, but... they werent going to recast the figure annyway. The only thing they can hope for is getting some money out of a trial. And yet again it all comes down to money, wich they werent loosing because of this recast annyway. It's just a way to make more.
I tought we were all doing this for the love of the game, guess I was wrong.

[duttydave]

Kwek, throughout the whole discussion you have been portraying re-casters as gallant Robin Hood style characters. You seem to see them as lovable rogues who are doing the community a great service in making out of production models available again.

However, in reality they are little more than lowlife profiteers attempting to pass on their often shoddy imitations as the real thing. Whilst recasting is not the 'crime of the century' it is still a crime.

You also argue that buying recasts is fine as long as the buyer is aware the figure is a recast. How often do the recasters advertise as such? As an example I don't think any of the suspicious ebayers exposed on this site have.

I can only speak for myself but I would rather own original models even if I have to pay a little more. Whether that makes me prissy or nerdy so be it. However, if someone knowingly purchases a recast doesn't that make them as morally bankrupt as the recaster or just plain stupid?