Ähm, now if you can't use Sure Feet & Sprint with Passbl

[Ghost of Pariah]

Sometimes I think they are counter productive too. What is so hard about saying, "The maximum move allowed on a pass block is 3 squares, no matter what skills the player has and players with less than 3 MA are allowed to move 3 squares." Easy.

[Zombie]

You're right Toby, the way they presented it, it's like saying that you can go for it. They would have been better off saying nothing at all, because the way it's presented now, it effectively changes the rule. I'm sure that wasn't their intent, but that's what they did all right. I can see them changing the text really soon...

[Icedman]

Thnx Zomb, that was precisely the point I was trying to make. I know that the BBRC does not intend to allow GFI on Pass Block, but by putting in the "you can't use Sprint/Sure Feet on PB" they have implied thta you can.

[Toby]

Galak, If I had only one Wish for X-Mas it would be u sitting in front of a GERMAN Rulebook and me telling you all the time how freaking easy to understand it is...

Back to topic:

If it is true that a MA2 Treeman can move 3 Squares when using the Passblock skill then I strongly disagree with the ruling and vote for a change !

[lightingbug]

Sometimes I think they are counter productive too. What is so hard about saying, "The maximum move allowed on a pass block is 3 squares, no matter what skills the player has and players with less than 3 MA are allowed to move 3 squares." Easy.

What about PB stating "can move 3 squares" with this skill and this skill can be used only if this movement allows for a TZ on thrower or catcher or enable to inercept the ball.
If you try to use GFI or Sprint doesn't that mean that your player is more than 3 squares away and thus you can not use the skill.

That how I would rule on it.
Lightingbug

"A player with this skill is allowed to move three squares
when the opposing coach announces that one of his
players is going to pass the ball. This move is made out
of sequence, after the range has been measured, but
before any interception attempts have been made.
However, the move may only be made if it allows the
player to move into a position to attempt an interception,
or to put the thrower or catcher in his tackle zone."
living rule book pg36

[Toby]

yes, yes, i don't vote to allow GFI dont get me wrong. Im all about the text being confusing at times. Well most of the time ^^

[Marcus]

Code: Select all

GOING FOR IT!
When a player takes any action apart from a Block, they
may try to move one or two extra squares over and
above the number that they are normally allowed to
move ? this is called ?going for it?.

LRB 1.3 - p20

Passblock isn't an action.

Code: Select all

Q: Which skills can I use during the movement part of a Pass Block?
A: You can use all the skills you would normally use during a move except for Jump Up, Sure Feet, and Sprint.

Rules review 2002

The question is what skills can I use. If the answer is to be correct then you have to include sprint and sure feet. Why? because you can't go for it on a passblock

The fact that it doesn't mention GFIs is irrelavent. The question was about skills, the answer includes the implicit assumption that you can't GFI on a passblock move.

I'm sorry, but anyone who claims differently is being utterly obtuse.

[Sputnik]

Marcus wrote:

The fact that it doesn't mention GFIs is irrelavent. The question was about skills, the answer includes the implicit assumption that you can't GFI on a passblock move.

It's also logic. If a gutter runner can only move three squares during a passblock move, why should he GFI?? He has a 'normally allowed' movement of 9!! No need for extra sqares! This artificial limit consequently also implies that no GFIs are allowed, no matter what normal movement allowance the player has. And any skills which are used DURING MOVEMENT include sprint and sure feet, and these were pointed out as not usable. Do you know any other skills relevant for movement which are not usable and which should be listed here as well????

Think the other way. "Jump up is not allowed during passblock!" Hey, damn, I can't jump up to intercept. But if I stand around useless as always I suddenly can GFI and even sprint, because otherwise they would have excluded it like jump up...nice trick! SURPRISE!!

Sputnik

[Icedman]

Sorry Marcus, but I've gotta disagree with you on that one. The RR states that you cannot use Sprint (to GFI 3 times) or Sure Feet (for your personal reroll) on a PB move. I'll agree that the intent is that you can't GFI on a PB, but the LRB doesn't specifically say so.

And it doesn't specifically say you can. So the default would be you cannot ... come one what cheese filled beard world do you have to come from to think that Pass Block allows GFIs? That's like says that a Shadow player could follow a Leaper both squares if he GFI because it doesn't say he cannot ... forgive me ... this is just plain silly to think you can GFI on PB.

The only problem I have with this statement Galak, is on your Hotlist page...

As Shadowing currently reads it applies ANY time an opponent leaves a player's tackle zone. Does this mean Shadowing is supposed to apply to each of the following:
During your turn, if an opponent uses Pass Block
BBRC response: Yes
During your turn if you push an opponent from a block
BBRC response: No
During your opponent's turn if they follow-up from a block
BBRC response: Yes
During your opponent's turn if he uses Leap
BBRC response: Yes

The fact that it doesn't mention GFIs is irrelavent. The question was about skills, the answer includes the implicit assumption that you can't GFI on a passblock move.

I've just asked everyone in my league about this one; read out the Rules Review, word for word, and asked each one to tell me how they interpreted the ruling, and every single one of them said that, although it had NEVER been done, or even contemplated doing so, the BBRC has implied that you CAN GFI on a Pass Block. Pariah said it best; simply re-write the Pass Block description to say something like... "You can move 3 squares, no GFI, regardless of player MA, on a Pass Block move, as long as you end the move with a TZ on the catcher or thrower, OR under the Pass ruler for an interception attempt."

Once again, I must reiterate that yes, the intent of the rules is that you cannot push on a Pass Block, by putting this "carification" in the review, they have in fact muddied the waters. I must also reiterate that yes, the vast majority of coaches (myself, and all who have posted to this thread included) realise this, the rules do not close this loophole, and there will always be someone that looks to exploit loopholes.

Logically:
NOT (Sprint) AND NOT (Sure Feet) -> NOT (3 GFI squares) AND NOT (failed GFI re-roll) -> 2 square GFI AND no re-roll on failed GFI.[/i]

[High & Mighty]

They definitely muddied things with the phrasing: "you can use any skill other than sprint, sure feet, and jump up." Is that really true?

Can you use block or frenzy or mighty blow or claw or RSC or guard?
No. Why not? Because you cannot blitz during a pass block so it's irrelevant.

Can you use kick?
No. Why not? Because you cannot kick a field goal or kickoff the ball during a pass block so it's irrelevant.

Can you use dirty player?
No. Why not? Because you cannot foul during a pass block so it's irrelevant.

Can you use pass or catch or sure hands?
No because you are not passing or catching or picking up the ball. (After the pass block is over and you are in place, though, you will be able to use catch on the interception.

So really, all you can use is dodge and stand firm and stunty and pro and leader (And I guess bonehead and really stupid???). Is that all?

The reason they explicitly state no sprint, sure feet, and jump up is because those were the controversies. No one was trying to do a foul action and use dirty player. But in the end, the suggested wording already given by others would be air tight...unless the meaning is lost in the german translation.

[Marcus]

Icedman - no, your logic is flawed there because you have removed the context of the ruling.

Q: What skills can I use in a GFI?
A: Not jump up, sprint, sure feet.

Look at that from both interpretive viewpoints:

(a) If you assume that GFIs are not allowed then the ruling simply states you can't use sprint or sure feet because GFIs are inapplicable in this case.

(b) If you assume GFIs are allowed then the ruling has - despite the context of the rule - added an implicit new rule that states that while you can GFI you can't use skills that apply to GFIs during a passblock move. This is a special exception to the normal rules of skill use.

View (a) is internally consistent, (b) is not.

I will personally slap anyone who tries to bring this to a tournament or to my league. It's rules lawyering at its lamest - it uses some of the oldest and weakest of fallacious logical techniques. Really, this is first year philosophy stuff.

[Zombie]

The problem here is not creating loopholes and whatnot. The problem is that if you give these FAQs to some random shmok who doesn't know prior whether GFI are allowed or not, and has never asked himself that question, he will read the FAQ as it is presented, including the implied message that GFI are allowed, and will accept that.

The sentence is very badly written, it really does seem very much to imply something which we know wasn't intended, but it's there. It WILL get whole leagues assuming that GFI are allowed. The wording needs to be changed big time because the BBRC are now telling us something that they never intended to.

[GalakStarscraper]

The only problem I have with this statement Galak, is on your Hotlist page...

Speaking of that ... from the Hotlist page:

Clarify with both Throw Team-Mate and Pass Block which skills can be used in conjuction with them.
BBRC response: Throw Team-Mate can only have Pass, Pro, or Leader used with it. Pass Block may use any skill other than Sprint, Sure Feet, and Jump Up (ie you must be standing already to use Pass Block and since you cannot GFI during a Pass Block, you cannot use Sprint or Sure Feet)

Galak

[Toby]

http://www.games-workshop.com/Warhammer ... es_rev.htm

A: You can use all the skills you would normally use during a move except for Jump Up, Sure Feet, and Sprint.

I suggest making that "move action" and adding "because players can't go-for-it on a pass block move"

The Easier way would be to write it the positive way: you are allowed to Dodge & Leap (anything else?)

[Skummy]

Break Tackle, Stand Firm and Pro "leap" to mind.