Tweaking the Vamps (yet again)

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:28 am

What friggin' Tau? Like Tao-Tao - small pandas taking over the WH40K universe?

The tau are an alien race recently discovered in the 40k universe. Like the Necrons their teck is better than imperiums. Tau live in a multi system alliance that actually makes them the only good guys (now that the short abhuman race is gone) in the 40k universe. Actually most of the changes and updates to the bb races actually brings everything closer to the old old fluff in the fantasy universe.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 9:20 am

I really don't like the idea of vampires or other players not doing anything just because they're afraid of a rule. With an ogre losing his tacklezone, that usually is a problem maybe once or twice in a game. A vampire biting his own team mate, or falling down while dodging past a nice little amazon lady standing in the way towards his team mate is ALWAYS a problem. I think that the rule would be both more fitting and just right if the vampire would just bite the CLOSEST LIVING BEING, rolling a die if two possibilities, and ignoring foul appearanced players.

That way I could agree with the rule, since that way it feels a lot less silly to me, and I wouldn't mind biting friends, if I could also bite opponents.

R

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:35 am

Redfang wrote:I think that the rule would be both more fitting and just right if the vampire would just bite the CLOSEST LIVING BEING, rolling a die if two possibilities, and ignoring foul appearanced players.

Not any where near negative enough ... COFAB would never be agreed to if this was the rule, sorry. As I've said my league has 3 COFAB Vamp teams and so far so good ... not too good, not too bad.

Galak

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:26 am

Munkey wrote:Isn't the problem with the vampire team the fact that the stats are trying to match the original star player? (Can't remeber his name)

IMO he was one of the best stars, so why can't he be treated as a Griff character who has +1 ST & AG (or at least one as is prevalent on the stars), this would allow the vampire team to filed vamps with lower stats and so deal with some of the problems of them being overpowered.

Would they be vampires then? No they wouldn't.

The problem, as I see it, is the fact that vampires are supposed to be hideously powerful, but their teams shouldn't be too good. When looking at a vampire player as an individual, I want to see a powerful player that would could mounts a serious threat to the other team. But when looking at the team, I don't want to see a team, but a bunch of individuals that cannot unite their strengths in an orderly fashion so that they could become a good team.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 10:11 pm

Hi Mestari,
I still can't come to terms with your very different approach to fixing the Khemri team and fixing the vampire team. Consider this:

Both teams has a lot of pretty weak players.
They also have a hard core of players that are simply too good at what they do. So good in fact, that these few players unbalance the rest.

IMO, this applies to both teams.
You fix the one by cutting away at statlines, stating that adding a negatrait would be a bad thing.
On the other, cutting away at the statline is unacceptable, while a very dramatic negatrait is the only way to go.

This seems very odd to me.

Sure, there is fluff saying that vampire teams have done badly. With the right stats they will. Why give this fluff such a prominent role in team design, and at the same time ignore that mummies have always had mighty blow?

COFAB may very well be an adequate solution, but IMO it is not the best one.
I'd rather see a vampire team that was more "vanilla" flavoured, if it is to be an official team.
IMO, the vampire team can be made more "regular", and yet both balanced and interesting to play, by cutting a few vampires, removing OFAB altogether, and dropping the vampires AG to 3.
IMO, AG3 will deal with all of the problems with the vamp team. Suddenly they are not unstoppable dodgers, even with their gaze. Suddenly their passing is limited, and they'll fail catches and pick-ups.
They'll still be powerful players, but not unstoppable!

(And don't tell me that a 6438 Regen, Gaze player looks like a human).

Martin

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:20 am

plasmoid wrote:IMO, AG3 will deal with all of the problems with the vamp team. Suddenly they are not unstoppable dodgers, even with their gaze. Suddenly their passing is limited, and they'll fail catches and pick-ups.

Midway though my 2nd game with COFAB vamps, and I'd say AG4's ok as they still can't pick up/pass/catch/dodge - or maybe it's just my bad rolling

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 10:11 am

plasmoid wrote: This seems very odd to me.

Makes sense to me

(have you read the "Piranha Club"-comic?)

Seriously, though, that's just my vision of those two teams. Even though admittedly I'm presenting two different solutions, I'm presenting them for two different teams. I'm not too keen on sticking to one solution for all teams.
I just don't like the idea of a neg trait for mummies, and I really do like the version that Galak is currently testing for the Khemri.
And I just don't like the idea of toned-down vamps and I've been thinking of neg-skills or team rules to allow powerful vamps ever since I saw the first house-rule vamp team in the 90's. I would've liked the suggestion that I presented (it was already simple to use and would've made vamps a weak team with great players), but COFAB simply gained much more wide-spread support. It's definitely better than the rules in the mag.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 2:19 pm

Mestari wrote: The problem, as I see it, is the fact that vampires are supposed to be hideously powerful, but their teams shouldn't be too good. When looking at a vampire player as an individual, I want to see a powerful player that would could mounts a serious threat to the other team. But when looking at the team, I don't want to see a team, but a bunch of individuals that cannot unite their strengths in an orderly fashion so that they could become a good team.

How about limiting Vampire teams to one reroll? This would let you keep them individually powerful, but inable to work very well as Blood Bowl players.

MickeX · Post by **MickeX** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 2:43 pm

Skummy wrote:How about limiting Vampire teams to one reroll?

This could work! Or simply don't let vamps use re-rolls. I've never liked those clumsy and un-fluffy OFAB/COFAB negatraits.

The fluff rationale is simple: Vampires wouldn't bother to train. And they haven't got the patience to try training their thralls either.

Micke

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 3:01 pm

And you can make the Vamps hideously expensive because they don't have a negatrait.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 6:24 pm

MickeX wrote:I've never liked those clumsy and un-fluffy OFAB/COFAB negatraits.

Un-fluffy .... I have no idea what you mean by this those two skills are practically the definition of fluff.

I'll repeat myself again ... we got 3 COFAB teams in my league and they are being VERY well received by both the coaches of the team and their opponents. I'll take playtested fluff that works anyday.

Galak

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 6:49 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:I'll repeat myself again ... we got 3 COFAB teams in my league and they are being VERY well received by both the coaches of the team and their opponents.

Hey, is that me? I know Torgs got a vamp team, whose is the other?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:02 pm

Darkson wrote:
GalakStarscraper wrote:I'll repeat myself again ... we got 3 COFAB teams in my league and they are being VERY well received by both the coaches of the team and their opponents.
Hey, is that me? I know Torgs got a vamp team, whose is the other?

Torg has one.
You have one.
Evil Git has one.

So all 3 of my COFAB teams in the MBBL are represented by TBB members and so far I haven't heard any complaints of imbalance in either direction from any of your three or your opponents to date.

Galak

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:14 pm

Well, I've got a complaint.

How come my Vamps (and HE's) always fail the 2+?

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:13 am

Darkson wrote:Well, I've got a complaint.

How come my Vamps (and HE's) always fail the 2+?

Hey, that's just what goes with playing vamps, or so it seems. I can rarely ever make a COFAB roll when it is needed. I have no complaints with this team (other than they suck, but they are supposed to). The COFAB seems to be a better limiting factor than the old OFAB ever was.