Bashing Elf

[whitetiger]

That's cause you run dwarves, PubBowler, of course any elves don't need help from your perspective. But Dark Elves are the slowest elves, they don't have a passer, most of their team has 7 armour like other elves and they're just as expensive as the other elves. How can they not need a little bit of a boost?

The game seems to be going toward a bash heavy flavor. Okay, fine. Give me something to fight with. I really don't mind.

So, give me a Witch with ST access. Simple fix. No stat increases. No extra positional, (although I love the idea of an Executioner.) And I really do want one.

[PubBowler]

That's cause you run dwarves, PubBowler, of course any elves don't need help from your perspective.

Wrong on both counts.

I have run most teams and will do so again.
Not using the team doesn't mean biased against it.

But Dark Elves are the slowest elves, they don't have a passer, most of their team has 7 armour like other elves and they're just as expensive as the other elves. How can they not need a little bit of a boost?

Dark Elves are slowest by about .2MA when you average over their best 11 or 16. And this translates to more people with above average MA (6) than Pro or High Elves.

As for Armour, they have the highest AV (along with High Elves* by 0.7AV) and an even more meaningful in game difference between them and Pro & Wood Elves by concentrating the higher AV on the linemen.

If you mean they don't start with Pass, Yes.
If you mean they don't have a passing game, No.
MA7 is much better for a thrower than AV8.

So, give me a Witch with ST access. Simple fix. No stat increases.

I don't make that call but the one guy who can that has posted (DoubleSkulls) has indicated that he is not convinced that Dark Elves need a boost either.

The last thing I want to see in Blood Bowl is power creep.
That way lies madness (and GW core game status).
Dark Elves are already listed as hard to play and I have no doubt that this difficulty drags down their MBBL rating.

And I'm not sure how adding a G to one column is any simpler than changing a number to 7 from 6.

Or preferably, neither.


* Assuming you take 2 of the four least popular AV7 positionals.

[mattgslater]

This is why I like the "Options" rules: they allow funky stuff without opening the door (well, at least not opening it wide) for freaky balance problems. The modularity means that you can put out several options, balance them against each other, and everybody gets to walk away happy. You do have to balance them against each other, and against the player they replace... but it's perfectly acceptable to just balance the best options against the LRB5 slots being replaced, and be willing to implement a penalty whenever you see an apples-to-oranges comparison.

You can also play with opportunity costs if you have Options: this way, you can underpower gimmick players without worrying too much about the effect on the team as a whole, so long as you have some Option worth taking, letting you insert gimmicks that would just kill the team's competitiveness if you tried to work them into LRB5. That way, if you can't balance an idea out right, you have extra latitude at the low end. More management decisions for coaches = more of the good stuff. Plus, veteran coaches can go for "fun" options like unnecessary secret weapons and stuff, without requiring that the designer account for it in the team race structure (again, the caveat that it can't be quite as good as the better options).

I tell ya, man, Options rules have been a joy. There's no reason to believe that two teams of the same race will have more than vaguely-similar team construction and development. An Orc team that goes for a Troll will probably put him on the D-line a lot as a 3-4 NT, but if they take an Ogre you'll see a lot of 3-3 or 3-5 with the Ogre at Mike (sometimes even at SS), or maybe some asymmetrical defenses with the Ogre in the blitz-me spot. Likewise, a Dark Elf team would have in addition to the Witch Elves a few different avenues (assassins, executioners, etc.), so each team gets its own peculiar brand of nasty.

[Jural]

Team speed is about extremes, not averages. Having a 6 of MA 7 is nice, but having 4 MA 8 and the rest MA 6 is better. 4 MA 9 and 2 MA 8 is of course much better.

Dark Elf offenses suffer therefore, and they don't get guard, mighty blow, or STR 4+. Therefore they are one of the least straightforward teams to use... But I don't know that they need the boost.

The thing is, and most longtime Dark Elf coaches will agree, the team is already extremely sensitive to stat increases and doubles rolls. A Dark Elf team with a ton of doubles or stat increaes outperforms almost every team in the game... even if those teams get the same increases.

On the other hand, I'm playing a Dark Elf team now which has had one doubles roll in 30 games, 1 +MA, and 1 +AG. That team is not doing so well against other high TV teams. I long for my old Dark Elf team, with 4 doubles rolls, 2+STR, 2+AG, and 2+MA in it's first 20 games!

[whitetiger]

Team speed is about extremes, not averages. Having a 6 of MA 7 is nice, but having 4 MA 8 and the rest MA 6 is better. 4 MA 9 and 2 MA 8 is of course much better.

I totally have to agree on this point. Having 4 players that move 8 and the rest 6 is much better than all of them moving 7.

Dark Elf offenses suffer therefore, and they don't get guard, mighty blow, or STR 4+. Therefore they are one of the least straightforward teams to use...

yep.

The thing is, and most longtime Dark Elf coaches will agree, the team is already extremely sensitive to stat increases and doubles rolls. A Dark Elf team with a ton of doubles or stat increaes outperforms almost every team in the game... even if those teams get the same increases.

I agree. But it's the luck of the dice, and if your guys can survive long enough to exploit the increases.

On the other hand, I'm playing a Dark Elf team now which has had one doubles roll in 30 games, 1 +MA, and 1 +AG. That team is not doing so well against other high TV teams. I long for my old Dark Elf team, with 4 doubles rolls, 2+STR, 2+AG, and 2+MA in it's first 20 games!

my point exactly.

I'm not saying, and never have said, that Dark Elves need an over haul. I'm just saying they need a tweak. An Executioner or two on a team would be just great and I would have to be hospitalized, but I truly do think that it would be a bit much. But simply adding S access to Witches wouldn't be that much of a stretch and would definately help to get the Dark Elves back into the game.

Now, as to the point of concentrating high AV in the linemen on Dark Elves, right, and your expensive positionals who are targets have a lower AV and therefore get knocked about quite as much as Wood Elves, who can outrun about everybody.

And as for power creep, that's been going on for years. Look at the stats and skill access for the last several teams that have been created. Most of them are power teams.

[PubBowler]

And as for power creep, that's been going on for years. Look at the stats and skill access for the last several teams that have been created. Most of them are power teams.

Next three teams to be added: Slann, Underworld & Chaos Pact

All Tier 2.
No power creep here.

Recent teams to be added (LRB): Amazon, Elf, Khemri, Lizardman, Necromantic, Norse, Nurgle, Ogre, Vampire.

Seven Tier 1 (one of which was over the top & one needing a boost) and Two Tier 2.
Seems an even mix to me, even if corrections had to be made.

7 of the top 10 MBBL teams have been with us consistently since 3rd edition (or before).

8 of the top ten tournie teams have been with us consistently since 3rd edition.

I think BloodBowl, through design not luck, has avoided significant power creep. You get the "how do we deal with this?"period but it settles down.

NB: 3rd edition vs the LRB might seem a bit arbitrary but I think that where the largest rule change occurred (3rd edition) & when there was a big change in how new rules were decided on (LRB).

[whitetiger]

You just made my point. Amazon and Elf aren't bashy, but all the rest of them are. Norse are light on armor, but they are definately bashy with all that block and strength access and 2 Ulfs and a Troll. And all the rest of those teams are definately heavy hitters. The lightest team in that list are the Necromantics.

As for the top teams in the MBBL and such, look at what most of those teams are, dwarves, undead, chaos dwarves. The only agility teams in that top bunch are the Wood Elves and the Skaven. And they can both outrun everybody else and they have big guys, and the Rat Ogre is argueably the best big guy in the game.

Where does that leave the other elves? Getting punched out.

[PubBowler]

As for the top teams in the MBBL and such, look at what most of those teams are, dwarves, undead, chaos dwarves. The only agility teams in that top bunch are the Wood Elves and the Skaven. And they can both outrun everybody else and they have big guys, and the Rat Ogre is argueably the best big guy in the game.

Where does that leave the other elves? Getting punched out.

Elf teams are currently third in the MBBL.
Compared to D Elves they have: less armour, similar speed, no big guy.
An oversight or something that did that not fit your argument?

And I'd argue that the most similar team (in bashy/agility stakes) to Dark Elves are Human, another top ten team.

And the Rat Ogre is a really long argument from being the best big guy in the game.

[whitetiger]

Actually, forgot that Elves are in the top ten. But, they do come with a thrower, their blitzers come with block and sidestep, they get 4 8MA catchers with dodge and NOS. That does give them a few advantages coming out of the gate that dark elves don't have.

And as for the arguement that humans are very similiar to Dark Elves. Humans get strength access. With all that guard and mighty blow, kind of puts them at a different level of bashiness.

As for the Rat Ogre, there's a lot of folks that argue he's the best overall big guy in the game.

[SillySod]

Heyho, I'm a reasonably established Vampire coach (gotta love em) but I've recently been playing elves a bit more too.

My team of choice for elves is Dark Elves, they are a highly competitive roster with excellent durability and great ball handling skills. I've found that blitzers are the key players for a darkie teams success.... decent move, excellent agility, reasonable armour, they even start with block. These players are hugely flexible as well as being pretty powerful.

What I've also found is that they absolutely rock against bashing teams, I actually fear playing other elves and rats with my darkies. You can go through some tough times but if most of your players take dodge as a first skill then you have quite a resilient team. Use the fact that you're elves to beat the bashing teams 2/3 times and you will find that your team becomes more durable still...... a higher FF, more money for winning and crucially the pressure on the ball forces your opponent to diverty their attention away from bashing.

Another point worth noting is that elvish throwers in general (but especially dark elf throwers) can pretty much be seen as an asset to the team rather than an essential. They are nice to have and easy to skill but not essential to the win at all, something of a luxuary item.

If elves arent your thing then try using other races. They are well able to compete at pretty much any level though, especially in an all bash environment.

Edit: I just saw a comment about rat ogres and "best". Sorry but that just isnt right.

The lightest team in that list are the Necromantics.

/me points at the VAMPIRES in that list. Heavy hitters them vamps?

[Jural]

As for the Rat Ogre, there's a lot of folks that argue he's the best overall big guy in the game.

He's a +1 MA Minotaur with Prehensile Tail instead of Horns, and 10k more expensive...

Why is that relevant? Most people would argue the Minotaur (the Chaos Dwarf one, in particular) is the worst big man in the game! How can two very similar pieces be the worst and best Big Men in the game?

For my money, the Beast of Nurgle is the best big man in the game, hands down.

[Master Wang]

Pro elf catcher's have NOS and catch, not dodge. Yes, the blitzers start with side-step, but they are pricey and you can only have two of them as opposed to four on the dark elf roster. I think I agree that dark elves may be a little lacking in some way, but am not sure what. I don't think strength access fits as at the end of the day they are elves.

I think the best change would be to make the assassin worth having (give him MA8 and dodge and whack his price up or make stab more effective - automatic armour role with a plus 1 modifier) or do away with him (the star player is enough from a fluff point of view IMO) and make an alteration elsewhere.

Another consideration - I'd be happy to see 4 witch elves allowed for lots of death and destruction, but I haven't thought that through and guess it'd unbalance the team.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
like I said, I love the ST-skills on witches idea. I think it gives the darkies something unique, and I don't think it breaks standard elven wuzzyness that their berzerkers are deadly.

But - it won't help dark elf teams one bit in the early stages of development, and IMO, that is where their problem is.
They are a very expensive team, with very few stability skills - and that makes them quite weak early on.
IMO, this is also why making their positionals even better (and even more expensive) will not help the team at all.

And Darkies are weak starting out. In the MBBL, their win-record is down there with vampires and creepers.

So, what they need is a bit of starting stability. I can see potential 2 sources:
1) Give the runner sure hands over dump-off. Dump-off was cute fluff, but the team struggles. And sure hands was specifically avoided to not make the team too good. It clearly wouldn't be!

2) Give the assassins dodge over shadowing. A bit of out-of-the-box mobility would make these players more useful for the team.

Cheers
Martin

[whitetiger]

I still think the simple fix is to just give the witches strength access. There'd be no need to configure any other position on the field, with only 2 witches, the team wouldn't be overpowering, they definately still be the bashiest elf team, it's just a simple fix.

[stashman]

Maybe a slight redo will help the team

Runners 6 3 4 7 Kick-Off Return, Strip Ball 80K