Dump-Off & Pass Block

Post by **Old Man Draco** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:18 am

Hmmm, but that makes no sense. Either the turn ends immediatly when the passblocker falls, the blitzing player does not even get a chance to block because one of his team fell before he could get to do the blitz, or all players involved into the dump off get to finish their "action" caused by the announced dump off.

So I'd say:

1. Pass block on moving turn failes (player knockes himself over). Immediate turn over, no other moves or actions allowed, not even the Dump off pass.
2. Pass block on moving turn failes. All other players with pass block on the moving team get to move as well, the Dump off is resolved, the blitz is finished. Then turnover.

Ending a turn midway, just doesn't seem right.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:43 am

The rules already allow for events "in motion" to resolve. Otherwise once a turnover occurred the ball would stop moving.

If you think it as a que ... the que closes at the event of a turnover and then you just need to clear out what was already placed in the que.

Que Opened for Blitz Action:
I move blitz action player adjacent to ball carrier and declare block (open)
Ball carrier declares dump off (open)
First pass blocker moves and dodges (open)
Dodge roll fails causing turnover
Que Closes immediately due to turnover

Que Clears in reverse order:
Open items for pass blocker resolves placing the player down and AV/Inj rolls are made
Open item dump off resolves allowing the ball to be thrown and caught or scatter until it comes to rest.
Open item block on dump off player resolves with results of block including resolution of pushes and AV/INJ if needed handled.

Next player's turn.

====

I guess you could try and argue that the 2nd Pass Blocker's ability to move is added to the que before the 1st one starts moving ... but I don't agree with that stance. The rules state the turn ends immediately but that doesn't mean that the open items don't need cleared out. But I would definitely argue that new items cannot be added and since a 2nd Pass Blocker could have dice rolls involved ... I see no reason why he would be allowed to perform them since that que is in my opinion closed.

Galak

MadLordAnarchy · Post by **MadLordAnarchy** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:59 am

Complicated and unnecessary. Don't think I'll be having dump off be pass blockable round my way.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:28 pm

MadLordAnarchy wrote:Complicated and unnecessary. Don't think I'll be having dump off be pass blockable round my way.

Funny thing is ... if this was a topic where folks jumped up and down and demanded a rulebook clarification ... MLA's comment is the high end most likely thing that would happen.

Galak

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:45 pm

I agree exactly with Galak's analysis (and probably that the simplest answer is just to prevent PB working during a DO).

You can have lots of horrible stuff going on if you have shadowing of shadowing of the pass block (think about it).

All the out of turn movement stuff is really horrible to contemplate in certain circumstances. Thankfully the skills aren't that good/common.

Post by **Old Man Draco** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:07 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:Que Opened for Blitz Action:
I move blitz action player adjacent to ball carrier and declare block (open)
Ball carrier declares dump off (open)
First pass blocker moves and dodges (open)
Dodge roll fails causing turnover
Que Closes immediately due to turnover

Que as I would see it:
1. Blitz on ball carrier declared. (open)
2. Player blitzing moved to ball carrier. (open)
3. Dump Off declared. (open)
4. Pass blockers declare movement. (open)

As stated before. Either all players who declared to do something get to do this, or none are allowed to do so after the first failure, resulting in the ballcarrier not being able to dump off, because the blitzer didn't get to do his block.

(TBH, I'm happy either way as long as I keep playing, so if my opponent would propose a different outcome, I'd probably accept that as well.

)

skars · Post by **skars** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:24 pm

MadLordAnarchy wrote:Complicated and unnecessary. Don't think I'll be having dump off be pass blockable round my way.

...or a failed "pass block" doesn't cause a turnover and carry on with the remaining open actions.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:59 pm

In my mind .... this is the type of thing that is best handled by a league commissioner without forcing the issue to try and be resolved by changed LRB wording. Because I agree with Ian ... the events get messy fast with Pass Block during your own turn ... and I'd rather not have to put in the rulebook that Pass Block doesn't work during a Dump Off because in my mind it should.

And given that I don't agree at all with Draco that it has to be one of the two ways he mentioned ... again ... I think this is best handled by league commissioners IF it came up.

I'm wondering how many times we've actually had an issue with 2 Pass Block players being in position to Pass Block a Dump Off. I think changing the rules to solve this problem (which I've personally never seen ever in a game that I've played or watched) would be kinda nuts to be honest.

Galak

Super Nashwan · Post by **Super Nashwan** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:49 pm

i like skars version

...or a failed "pass block" doesn't cause a turnover and carry on with the remaining open actions.

it wouldn't cause a turn-over in normal situations

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:27 pm

ianwilliams wrote:You can have lots of horrible stuff going on if you have shadowing of shadowing of the pass block (think about it).

I've thought about this one. I can't see it. With shadowing, the only die roll is to see if you shadow: pass or fail, no turnover complications, no chance for Diving Tackle, nothing. If you also had to dodge when shadowing, then absolutely this would be a nightmare, but as the rules stand, only the pass block part can cause problems.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:44 pm

I'm Pass Blocking in my turn (a Dump Off). My opponent has a Shadowing player trying to follow my PB. I have a Shadower trying to shadow the shadow.

And that's not complicated?

Post by **Old Man Draco** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:47 pm

No of course not, because he has a shadower who is shadowing your shadowing shadower.

Nice and simple.

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:49 pm

Not saying it isn't complicated. Just that it doesn't add any extra possiblities for turnovers or other rule complications. Whether or not the shadowers are there doesn't change the number of queries we might come up with.

Daefaroth · Post by **Daefaroth** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:30 pm

Darkson wrote:I'm Pass Blocking in my turn (a Dump Off). My opponent has a Shadowing player trying to follow my PB. I have a Shadower trying to shadow the shadow.

And that's not complicated?

Am I missing a joke or are you guys reading the rules diferently than I do? I don't believe that you can shadow either another shadower or a pass block.

Shadowing (General)
The player may use this skill when a player performing an Action on the opposing team moves out of any of his tackle zones for any reason.

Am I reading too much into the capitalization on the word Action? Pass block and shadowing are skills not Actions. If I am reading this correctly the only Actions shadowable are Move Block Blitz Pass Hand-Off and Foul. Would love a clarification on this.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:35 pm

You are correct ... you cannot shadow a Pass Block player.

Galak