New team: Pit Fighters

[Darkson]

Seeing the new pitfighter models brought out for Mordheim, I wondered if these could be made into a BB team. These are not thought out in anyway and are just general ideas. Also, I don't know it would be possible to convert the PF models so it's all a bit up in the air.

my general reasoning is that as the PF warband uses "aspects" of different races, so the BB team could also.

My rough roster idea:

0-1 Dwarf trollslayer (as dwarf team)
0-2 "Skink" PF 7 2 4 7 Dogde G+A
0-2 "Witch Elf" PF 7 3 3 7 Frenzy G+A
0-2 "Chaos" PF 6 3 3 8 Horns G+S
0-2 "Undead" PF 6 3 3 8 (not sure on skill or lists for this one - RSC because of model? Not very undead)
0-2 "Empire" PF 7 3 3 8 Block G+S
0-10 "Orc" PF 5 3 3 9 G

Big guys : Orge

Special skill: On a roll of a double the following skill can be taken instead of a trait.
Change aspect: The plyer can change aspect to another of the ones available. All skill learnt are kpt but any stat increases are lost. Stat decrease are kept.

I know it's a lame skill, but it could be useful if a team couldn't aford to replace a specialist but one of it's players rolled a double.

My biggest problem (apart from costing etc) is number of positional players (max. 11).

Still, it's just an idea. Please be gentle with all critisms)

[Styrofoam King]

That's one way to handle it, but it just seems like another evil Gits team (though I do agree with the Ogre Big Guy). I haven't (nor will I likely ever) but I wanted to include a Warhammer Quest style touch.

Example:

Pit Star (blitzer): 90k MA6 ST3 AG3 AV8 Skills: Block, Multiple Block
options: Gen, Stre

[Rune]

I like the idea of having a Pit Fighter Team list, but I think your proposal has WAY too many positions. I looked up the Pit Fighter warband rules, and came up with the following:

Code: Select all

0-12 Pit Fighter  6 3 2 9                                G    50k
0-4  Pursuer      8 3 3 7 Dodge                          G/A  80k
0-2  Troll Slayer 5 3 2 8 Block, Frenzy, Dauntless, TS   G/S  90k
0-2  Veteran      6 4 3 8 Block                          G/S  110k
                               
Rerolls: 60k
Big Guys: Ogre

The veteran might be a bit powerful, so perhaps he should be reduced to Ag2. Or perhaps he should have less strength and more skills.

[DoubleSkulls]

I like the idea of having a Pit Fighter Team list, but I think your proposal has WAY too many positions. I looked up the Pit Fighter warband rules, and came up with the following:

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0-12 Pit Fighter  6 3 2 9                                G    50k
0-4  Pursuer      8 3 3 7 Dodge                          G/A  80k
0-2  Troll Slayer 5 3 2 8 Block, Frenzy, Dauntless, TS   G/S  90k
0-2  Veteran      6 4 3 8 Block                          G/S  110k
                                
Rerolls: 60k
Big Guys: Ogre

The veteran might be a bit powerful, so perhaps he should be reduced to Ag2. Or perhaps he should have less strength and more skills.

Pit Fighters are a little bit expensive. Give them access to Strength skills then they are about right.

Pursuers are a little bit expensive too - Lion Warriors cost 10k more and have +1AG. So I'd say 70k for them or give them catch.

Veterans are about right.

[Rune]

Pit Fighters are a little bit expensive. Give them access to Strength skills then they are about right.

I disagree. Compared to a human lineman they have lost 1AG and gained 1AV which, in a team like this (with six more suited ball handlers), I believe is roughly equal. Strength access on linemen is something I think should be avoided unless the team has some other severe drawback (like dwarfs or chaos).

Pursuers are a little bit expensive too - Lion Warriors cost 10k more and have +1AG. So I'd say 70k for them or give them catch.

But Lion Warriors doesn't have Dodge. They have Catch instead, which isn't nearly as good a skill as Dodge. However, when looking at the team again, I'm inclined to think that the pursuers should get -1MA and -10k.

Additionally, I don't think player costs should be calculated solely based on the players stats/skills. The whole team must be looked at as a whole, and play testing is required to be sure of getting the costs right. So I'm not claiming that these player costs are balanced. More comments are appreciated.

[MickeX]

[quote="Rune"]

Code: Select all

0-12 Pit Fighter  6 3 2 9                                G    50k
0-4  Pursuer      8 3 3 7 Dodge                          G/A  80k
0-2  Troll Slayer 5 3 2 8 Block, Frenzy, Dauntless, TS   G/S  90k
0-2  Veteran      6 4 3 8 Block                          G/S  110k
                              
Rerolls: 60k
Big Guys: Ogre

That a nice list. I generally don't think we need more team other than a few more underpowered ones (Ogres & Vampires for example) but if as a house rule I think it looks good.

One thing though: no other humans start with ST4, not even norse blitzers. Why not give them orc blitzer stats? I think it'd fit them. (Thinking about it, if I'd ever use the 2 ed humans minis, I think I'd play them with orc stats... that's a lot of tin for AV8 players! )

And you're right about -1 move for the pursuers.

Micke

[DoubleSkulls]

I don't think player costs should be calculated solely based on the players stats/skills. The whole team must be looked at as a whole, and play testing is required to be sure of getting the costs right. So I'm not claiming that these player costs are balanced. More comments are appreciated.

Well I was basing it on the rough formula I remember

MA 10k
ST 30k plus 30k if 4 or over
AG 20k
Av 10k
Skills 10k. Some - particularly Block - cost 20k.

Skill access - sometimes 10k.

Normally I try to find the nearest equivalent player and adjust from there.

So according to that formula Pit Fighters and Pursuers are a little expensive. However making new teams err on the expensive side is a good idea, then you can't be accused of power gaming.

[Rune]

Normally I try to find the nearest equivalent player and adjust from there.

Me too, and the nearest equivalent player is the Ghoul which has -1MA and -10k.

As you said, some skills are worth 20k, and I definately think Dodge are among them, so in my opinion the price fits the formula.

So according to that formula Pit Fighters and Pursuers are a little expensive. However making new teams err on the expensive side is a good idea, then you can't be accused of power gaming.

That I can totally agree with.

[Rune]

One thing though: no other humans start with ST4, not even norse blitzers. Why not give them orc blitzer stats? I think it'd fit them.

I have to agree with you. Humans shouldn't have ST4. Orc Blitzer stats are a good idea. Perhaps allow 4 of them. Pro might also fit well.

I'm also thinking that Side Step might be an appropriate skill for the Pursuers to compensate for -1MA instead of decreasing the cost.

[Ithilkir]

Agreed about the Orc Blitzer stats for the veterans, except swap block for pro OR nerves of steel.

I'd keep pursuers at 7/3/3/7 dodge - 80k G/A, but add pass or accurate to reflect the experience they are supposed to have with throwing javelins and spears in the pits.

[Rune]

Agreed about the Orc Blitzer stats for the veterans, except swap block for pro OR nerves of steel.

I think the Veterans should have Block. After all they're supposed to be quite good at fighting. The question is whether they should have an additional skill.

I'd keep pursuers at 7/3/3/7 dodge - 80k G/A, but add pass or accurate to reflect the experience they are supposed to have with throwing javelins and spears in the pits.

I agree that they should be able to be used as throwers. But then they should have access to passing skills, and I would also like them to have access to agility. Access to 3 skill categories might be too much. Then again, it might not. Having a position that functions both as thrower and catcher is interesting, and would make the team a bit more original.

[Rune]

Here's a revised version of my Pit Fighter team:

Code: Select all

0-12 Pit Fighter  6 3 2 9                                G      50k
0-4  Pursuer      7 3 3 7 Dodge, Accurate                G/A/P  80k
0-2  Troll Slayer 5 3 2 8 Block, Frenzy, Dauntless, TS   G/S    90k
0-2  Veteran      6 3 3 9 Block                          G/S    90k
                              
Rerolls: 60k
Big Guys: Ogre

I'm also considering reducing veterans to AG2, and maybe give them another skill in return.

[Ithilkir]

Big difference between fighting and the art of blocking an opponent however. I'd avoid going for any skill that would be learned on a blood bowl pitch and not a pit. So dump pro from my idea A 6339 block is just going to be known as a clone orc blitzer, better to half a different skill IMO, perhaps dirty player, after all a pit fighter veteran is bound to know all the tricks in the book when it comes to fighting dirty (and fouling dirty for that matter). The other options I'd go for are nerves of steel or mighty blow.

Also avoid two major skill groups on the same character, it's just waiting to be broken. As a rule of thumb as well, if a player has access to passing skills then only allow a maximum of two of them on the roster.

Personally I'd go for something like this...

Code: Select all

0-12 Pit Fighter  6 3 2 9                                G    50k 
0-2  Pursuer      7 3 3 7 Dodge, Pass                    G/P  80k 
0-2  Troll Slayer 5 3 2 8 Block, Frenzy, Dauntless, TS   G/S  90k 
0-2  Veteran      6 3 3 9 Mighty Blow                    G/S  100k 
                         
Rerolls: 60k 
Big Guys: Ogre 

[Rune]

Big difference between fighting and the art of blocking an opponent however. I'd avoid going for any skill that would be learned on a blood bowl pitch and not a pit.

The same argument could be used against giving the Pursuers passing skills. After all there is a big difference between throwing a ball and a javelin.

Also avoid two major skill groups on the same character, it's just waiting to be broken. As a rule of thumb as well, if a player has access to passing skills then only allow a maximum of two of them on the roster.

Elf throwers have access to both passing and agility. Do you think they're broken? I agree that it's generally not a good idea, but I think this case is a bit different. The point is that the Pursuers have to play the role of both throwers and catchers, and so if a coach really wants to develop 4 throwers he can't develop catchers. Besides I can't see why having four throwers is overpowered.

[Ithilkir]

Besides I can't see why having four throwers is overpowered.

Dump off... 'nuff said.