Maximum characteristic increase

[voyagers_uk]

personally I like VLL models and it would be a shame to do away with it just because the rule is not universally loved - tone it down via a house rule if you must.

[Snew]

Actually, if you forget about one-turn scoring for a minute, then VLL is actually one of the worst mutations. +1MA isn't very good (i always pass it up on a double 5 except for MA9 and MA2 players), and +1 to intercept is almost totally useless (how many intercepts is he gonna make successfully anyway?)

One-turn scoring as a whole needs to be dealt with, but very long legs in itself is ok, albeit on the weak side.

That may be true for nearly every player in the game but the Gutter Runner. The AG4 and the +1 to the INT roll give them a very good chance at being successful. Give him Pass Block next, he already has dodge. Make opportunities for him.

Foul appearance is another great Physical Trait for the GR, especially your VLL/Pass Block GR.

The point is (yes I did have one) that each of the Traits and Skills do actually have a player they seem to fit well. VLL and Gutter Runners DO go very well together as they are particularly well suited to utilizing BOTH aspects of the Trait. Others positions may not be as able to take advantage of both aspects but, when it makes that one roll successful, it was all worthwhile.

[Coach Barry]

It may be your opinion Mestari but it's an incorrect one. I rarelly play against skavens since my league only had 1 skaven coach and he rarelly played.

But, alas, I have played enough BB to know that a physical ability that is easier to get than a +1 MA, because it's easier to get a double than a 10 on two dice, and is better than getting that bonus is too powerful, and it gets worse when the usual player to get it is the fastest one in the game. It´s so unbalancing that a normal roll and a double will automatically transform a Gutter-Runner into a one turn TD machine just by learning sprint and very long legs. Since he has AG4 he will most probably catch a handout or an accurate pass. This type of one turn TD is much easier than all the other weird and devious tactics you can think of. Don't you agree?

[Mestari]

But, alas, I have played enough BB to know that a physical ability that is easier to get than a +1 MA, because it's easier to get a double than a 10 on two dice, and is better than getting that bonus is too powerful, and it gets worse when the usual player to get it is the fastest one in the game. It´s so unbalancing that a normal roll and a double will automatically transform a Gutter-Runner into a one turn TD machine just by learning sprint and very long legs. Since he has AG4 he will most probably catch a handout or an accurate pass. This type of one turn TD is much easier than all the other weird and devious tactics you can think of. Don't you agree?

I can see where your concern is coming from.
However, this tactic has been available since the beginning of the third edition. And still there is no widespread agreement that this would be horrendously unbalancing. Sure, every now and then somebody says that, but take you for example - you haven't even seen a 1-turn-scoring GR! I've seen quite a few. Sure they can score in one turn, but you fail to provide evidence how this 'machine' is unbalancing apart from that fact.

[bingbong186]

I agree with some of the other posts here, VLL is a skill/trait and should be allowed to combine with +2 MA. If not, is a +2AG player unable to combine any skill that would affect one of his rolls on the agility table? I know this seems less extreme, but it's only because MA is used for one purpose that this is even an issue. Then again are you able to use VLL to move an extra square, but not for your shadowing roll? Some of this may not make sense, but I'm just throwing ideas around

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the design for Chaos and Skaven teams take the fact that they can get mutations into account? And on the topic of 1 turn scorers, this is something that people just need to deal with, it's not much fun when it happens to you, but then again neither is it much fun when you lose your 75+ SPP Gutter Runner to a rampaging Minotaur with Block, Tackle, Piling on and RSC