Is Fumbbl Down?

squig87 · Post by **squig87** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:21 pm

I think some teams are well suited for taking on all teams. For example chaos dwarfs and orcs. I'm not sure who won the Ulthuan Invitational, but I remember specing some games where the bashers dominated, not because of coach skill but more to do with the teams involved.

Currently in the fumbbl premiership (brown_rob's 20 team round robin) I believe that ogres are in first, captain182's chaos in second and my chaos dwarfs in third currently. Thats after about 7 games I think. The elf teams have been mangled badly and have had to start again several times.

lukastrika · Post by **lukastrika** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:26 pm

Mirascael wrote:So far your argument would appear to be that they apply for leagues with bashy teams since they apply for leagues with bashy teams.

And all this argument does actually need to hold up is some leagues started with a lot of bashy teams. Then elves can't do a thing there most of the time, because they usually die. On the long run, people learn that in a bashy league elves die, thus not being able to do anything else, whereas in an ag league, bashers only lose, which is easier to cope with on a long term basis.

luka

Captain1821 · Post by **Captain1821** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:29 pm

squig87 wrote:Currently in the fumbbl premiership (brown_rob's 20 team round robin) I believe that ogres are in first, captain1821's chaos in second and my chaos dwarfs in third currently. Thats after about 7 games I think. The elf teams have been mangled badly and have had to start again several times.

It is true than in lower TRs Elf teams suck against bashy teams.

Hammerhiem · Post by **Hammerhiem** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:37 pm

I think it's more that the structure of gold production is such that teams that suffer high losses are unable to compete long term due to not being able to replace players.

this is a fundimental problem with the league structure as it is at the moment and why i would prefer the league structure such that:

All teams start with 13 players, limit positional players perhaps?

All dead players are replaced at no cost

A table to roll on after games to give rewards that increase RR, FF, extra players, lose players etc instead of money with winning teams to get more rolls obviously

that way there could be an even playing field for all teams after game 4 which at this moment see's elf teams down to 9 players and bashy teams upto 14.

SixFootDwarf · Post by **SixFootDwarf** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:59 pm

IMO it's the winnings table and ageing table that DESTROY Elf/Skaven teams...not other teams. Playing Dwarves or RSC Chaos wouldn't be quite as bad (yeah, you'd lose your favorite guys...) if you had an honest chance at making money and all your speedy catchers didn't niggle at 31 or 51 SPPs all the time. It's easy enough to get niggles with AV7...

Bashers work better in leagues too because they have less chance of ageing and can still produce. A Longbeard with 16 SPPs is a god, and will realistically never advance again (for ages!)...whereas an Elf Lineman needs to get to 16 SPPs just to contribute at all. The BBRC needs to look at the ageing and winnings....that may help the poor squishies.

mymLaban · Post by **mymLaban** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:45 pm

SixFootDwarf wrote:IMO it's the winnings table and ageing table that DESTROY Elf/Skaven teams...not other teams. Playing Dwarves or RSC Chaos wouldn't be quite as bad (yeah, you'd lose your favorite guys...) if you had an honest chance at making money and all your speedy catchers didn't niggle at 31 or 51 SPPs all the time. It's easy enough to get niggles with AV7...

Bashers work better in leagues too because they have less chance of ageing and can still produce. A Longbeard with 16 SPPs is a god, and will realistically never advance again (for ages!)...whereas an Elf Lineman needs to get to 16 SPPs just to contribute at all. The BBRC needs to look at the ageing and winnings....that may help the poor squishies.

i could not agree more, well said. maybe not so much the winning table unless you loose alot of players really fast but age is the bigger problem.

Mirascael · Post by **Mirascael** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:53 pm

Indeed, ageing is overkill for agile teams.

Captain1821 wrote:Coach Uber created a few days ago the "KO challenge 2005" where 16 teams KO tournaments are made in various TRs. The cool part in this is that no more than 2 teams per race may participate and guess what! Elf teams, Skaven, Amazons, Humans apply for membership!

In fact the very first 4 slots taken were dwarf and orc IIRC.

In TR100 Amazons are weaker than Dwarfs, Dwarfs are weaker than Chaos, Chaos are weaker than Amazons.

Come on, Chaos > Dwarves at TR 100?

mymLaban · Post by **mymLaban** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:57 pm

well dwarfs might be better then amazonz at tr100 or maybe at any tr, but amaz are alot better then every other team at tr100 imo. Amaz are the only team i ever started and had like 10 wins before i lost a match might be the same for norse? i dont know but amaz starting with 4 blodgers and 4 or 5 rrs are very hard to beat in the low tr. ohh and i must agree with Mirascael no way chaos are better then dwarfs at tr100

Uber · Post by **Uber** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:58 pm

Wow, people are talking about my tournaments...

My KO 225 is indeed scheduled to start soon, but I still need a few unranked teams between TR 201-225. It's a little bit hard to find teams in that range, but I've been going through the team list and personally inviting people to fill in the spots.

If you got such a team and are reading this just itching for fumbbl to come back up, feel free to apply to the tournament once it does. As Captain1821 said, there's a limit of 2 teams per race, and so far there are relatively few bashers, which should make for an interesting turnout.

Oh and on another topic...

amaz are alot better then every other team at tr100 imo.

That's absolutely right, because at the beginning when you're facing teams that don't have a lot of blocks(ie. elves, orcs, chaos, skaven, lizards), just having dodge has the same effect defensively as having block/dodge since your opponent is not likely cause a turnover just to knock you down.

Uber

Azurus · Post by **Azurus** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:27 am

Captain1821 wrote: Almost.

It is a fact that most people like bashy teams because they will have a longer life and a positive Cas dif number and not because it is easier to win with them. In a TR225 tournament, when you know that 9 out of 10 teams will be bashers, applying with an Elf team is madness because they will lose and die.

We would have more Elf teams if people liked fast TDs with long passes without caring about killing and not because it is easier to win with elves. Then putting an Orc team in a tournament with 9 Elf teams would be a waste of time because Orcs would lose most games.

Gotta say, I didn't know what you were on about in some of your posts but this one is spot on. Except for this next bit...

p.s.
Obviously some races are better than others, but in a way like the example:
In TR100 Amazons are weaker than Dwarfs, Dwarfs are weaker than Chaos, Chaos are weaker than Amazons.

Hoping this is a joke, I think I'd probably put Chaos as the 2nd worst team at TR 100, above only Rotters, and behind both stunty teams. They don't get better than dwarves until around TR 200 in my experience.
(about the point where a full dwarf rosters starts running out of skills to take)

EDIT: I forgot the recent additions to the 'official races' list. Chaos are probably better than vamps at 100, don't have enough experience of ogres to tell.

Anyway, in the first quote, you kinda isolated the problem - the agility teams don't last long enough in a long-term league if they're playing bashers regularly. At the same time though, the bashers need to take players off the pitch in order to keep a decent win rate.

So, if we want more agility teams doing well in long-term leagues, we need to increase their lifespan a little, without reducing the basher's chances of winning any given game.

It'll be interesting to see if any of the various vault measures get us anywhere with this stuff.

bogh · Post by **bogh** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:06 am

IÂ´d merely like to second what some people above have said - play tourneys! I really only play ranked to find games easily for a spur of the moment match. Otherwise, unranked tournaments are the way to go - especially the non-open formats.

Several advantages:

No cherry-picking and thus interesting match-ups.

Morons are far fewer.

You will not meet a team that was designed only to break the existing CAS record - the bashers play bashy, but they have to win to advance in the tourney.

The closed circle of either friends or trusted coaches is a nice way to play.

The running format, with a limited number of teams appeals to the fluff-freak in me far more than the non-descript ranked matches. Here you can have rivals from previous seasons etc.

Ranked is silly. Tournaments rock. That is all.

Aequitas · Post by **Aequitas** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:38 am

Mirascael is the man! Err... Wight! Best blocking/bashing Wight in Fumbbl's history!

Alright, having said that I will be wary, for he is quick to anger and quick to strike (frenzy/mb is nasty!).

Essentially what he is saying is correct though, regarding the 'clawless' bashing teams playing in Faction and what not. The main reason Elves can beat your average bashy team with non-bashy skills is due to said bashing teams inability to bash! Try saying that ten times fast! Aha!

Anyway, strength in numbers and with a couple of players with Big Hand (if Chaos, i'm a little biased here), Sure Hands, Kick, Strip Ball, Tackle and so on, you can really have a chance to dominate Elfy teams. But the essential thing is killing the other teams best players, or atleast causing enough damage to remove them from the game (and hopefully the following game..). As a wise gerbil once said (Deathgerbil), "live by the dice, die by the dice". Take that as you will.

Anyway, enough of that. All the same I've been beaten by Elf teams with only a few players left alive yet still manage to find ways to score. That's what Elves do, the annoying little.. argh! While on the topic, the best Elf coach ever has to be.. Mr Launcher, I think his name was.. awesome coach capable of anything, even when the dice aren't going his way!

And yes I had to say that, for all you silly Elf coaches that won't feed my nasty Chaos teams (we're hungry), listen up and see what the brave can accomplish! Well, as I recall Mr. Launcher has beaten me almost everytime we've played, but I've made him suffer! So all in all we both ended up happy. I think. He won, I killed. At the end of the day we both accomplished what we set out to do.

Onward! As to bashing teams playing 'gentlle' and trying to win through skill and finesse against fast, agile, running teams.. good luck! Take.. Orcs, Chaos, Dwarves for example. Expensive players, no access to Agility skills (ignore the Goblin, the Troll will eat him anyway) unless on doubles, low movement and.. yeah. Now, take your average Elf team (fast, agile, annoying) and have at 'er. Sure the bashy teams will generally survive easier with their high armour and what have you.. but really, even with superb coaching your chances aren't good unless the opposing Elf coach is retarded or you've sacrificed a live kitten and did your little voodoo dance with a rubber chicken, ensuring the luck will go your way. It works, CorporateSlave3 says so.

However.. throw in some claws, dirty players and lot's of MB/Tackle and things are suddenly different! Especially at high Team Rating.. when you DO find a game against an Elf coach (can take weeks/month) just see how likely they will be to use their star Witch Elf or Catcher, etc. Some of the best Elf strategies I've seen at high TR vs bashy teams is simply spreading out as much as possible. Make the bashy team try and tie up potential scorers in the following turn or taking out a star player.

Often enough I've been lured into killing a star at the expense of an opposing TD (and much swearing when the apothecary fails and/or was used earlier). But I constantly remind myself of the 100+ games I've played as a non-bashy Chaos coach.. let me tell you now, it sucked heavily. My team never did recover after that, they still feel the shame of meeting an Elf team with more MB/DP's then we had (3 MBer's). For shame!

So.. uhm yeah I guess I sorta rambled on for a long time, and if anyone actually reads all of that that, I hope you enjoyed it and maybe got something out of it. Like an urge to startup a Chaos team and kill your way to success. Or perhaps make an Elf team and play nothing but Chaos. Imagine the fun!

Moral of the story is this; play the game the way you want to play it, just be aware of the consequences. And don't ever try to play a bashy team as a non-bashy team, in the long run you'll realize it's stupid. The only alternative is if you've been lucky with your skill rolls. So do yourself a favour and smash, maim and kill those Elves! And the Orcs too.. they must suffer!

Chaos FTW!

Captain1821 · Post by **Captain1821** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:04 am

Mirascael wrote:
Captain1821 wrote:In TR100 Amazons are weaker than Dwarfs, Dwarfs are weaker than Chaos, Chaos are weaker than Amazons.

Come on, Chaos > Dwarves at TR 100?

Ok, my example wasn't the best but I think that people got what I wanted to say.

Maybe I should put Orcs instead of Chaos.

Azurus wrote:Hoping this is a joke, I think I'd probably put Chaos as the 2nd worst team at TR 100...

A team full of Horns can't be the 2nd worst at TR 100. Don't forget that any player can blitz anytime with st4! This is a big advantage.

Frankie · Post by **Frankie** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:25 am

Captain 1821 wrote:A team full of Horns can't be the 2nd worst at TR 100. Don't forget that any player can blitz anytime with st4! This is a big advantage.

And they'll most likely burn every rerolls on blocks, dodges, etc...

IronAge_Man · Post by **IronAge_Man** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:48 am

Last time I checked, I had noticed that there were a lot more Orcs, Chaos and the like in Faction 1 than had been traditionally the case (Elves all the way). However, it came as no real surprise that the 'middling' teams were hardly to be seen. By 'middling', I consider these to be Humans in all their incarnations, Necromantic and even Undead to an extent, Lizardmen, Vampires and even Rotters (they just can't develop into killers the way vanilla Chaos do).
I'm sure I've missed some, but you get the idea.

It seems to me that the two extremes of playstyle squeeze out the middle in certain league formats. Obviously, some of these rosters are hard to coach well (Lizardmen and Vampires are for expert coaches) or are weak (notably Rotters), whilst most of the rest suffer from the relative slim pickings of the General skill categories (looking forward to the Vault skill changes), resulting in poor performance at higher TR. Also, most good teams specialise on one particular playstyle; this goes beyond bashing or dodging - many skills or skill combinations work best when you have lots of players with them. With the neutral teams, it is harder to specialise in this way.

Regardless of what race they play, however, I would say that most of the F1 coaches are both skilled and dedicated - I enjoyed my own brief time in Factions early on, but I just can't get enough games in to compete in it.

P.S. I agree about Orc coaches - Orcs really aught to be one of the top rosters, but do seem to attract a lot of poor coaches. It is a forgiving roster to start out with, I suppose. Last time I checked, more matches had been played by orcs than any other (Orcs had 67,000 or so games, while the next few highest were clustered around 55,000).