You see what happened was...

[Dueggar]

This definitely belongs in the NEWB section but somone in the know please indulge me. I played 3rd ed BB for years in a well organzied balanced league that was just a ton of fun. I found all the java bowl wonders etc over at FUMBL and am thrilled that I can play again despite no one near me with the game. But two things are really standing out to me about 4th ed.

Why in the world was rolling for skills done away with? Now every Tom, Dick, and Slobberknocker can be built into a dominating force in just the space of a few games. It just boggles my mind. Now every bashing team looks just the same and all the speed teams do the same. There's no variety at all and you can't be nearly as proud of that block, dodge, leap blitzer (or insert uber piece here) now that there is 20 of them in a 12 coach league. That combined with my second question seems to really have overbalanced the game.

What happened to skill caps? I could be misrembering this issue since it could have been a league rule but a cap on the number of each skill you could have on the team really balanced things out between the races. (any skill a player was bought already possessing didn't count toward the cap) It just seems a little unbalancing to me.

I know this is an old old old issue to a lot of you but I have been living in cave for many years now and would love to hear from those of you who haven't been about these changes. Obviously there are others (diving tackle isn't a defensive skill anymore?) but these are the two biggest in my opinion. I don't mean to sound like an old coot going on with a "back in my day" story, I'm genuinely interested to hear from those "in the know", who played both ways, about what they think about these two changes in particular or about any of the other changes for that matter.

This is not intended as a 3rd ed was better post because I don't know that it was since I haven't played nearly enough 4th ed to find out so hopefully it is not coming off that way.

[Darkson]

4th edition never existed! (Ok, before I get a "huh?", 4th edition rules were printed by JJ in BB Mag #1 and #2. Apart from JJ, not many liked them, and they were "withdrawn"). Just so you know as some old-timers will be confused by your mention of 4th ed in your post.

The current edition is the LRB 4.0, which is more of an evolution on 3rd than a new edition.

[MickeX]

Were you really playing 3rd edition? I didn't play too much back in those days, but I don't seem to remember either random skills or a lower cap than today. Wasn't it rather the opposite?

[Xeterog]

LRB 3.0 (now 4.0, with the 2004 Rules Reveiw) is very similar to 3rd edition in a lot of ways. (it's basically the same rule book with a few rules tweaks, IMO).

Anyway, in 3rd edition, there were no random skills and there was no skill cap. In fact, you were better off since there was no ageing either.

You might have been playing in a heavily house-ruled league or something...I can't remember if 2nd edition had the things you mention or not, but I do remember it was far from balanced--some rosters in 2nd edition were horribly out of balance, IIRC. Not only that, but games took forever to finish.

[Dueggar]

Dynamite info Darkson. Thank you for correcting me.

Mickex - I was definitely playing 3rd ed, but as I mentioned the skill caps could have been a league rule.

But my questions still stand, but maybe there are few who remember those dark days in years long past.

[Duke Jan]

A skill cap existed in the rules. It was one of the Death Zone cards: Peaked all SPP were wasted on a player after he peaked.

But what version are you playing now? You still roll to see whether you get a skill, a stats increase or a trait/skill outside the eligible catagories. I know some things, like assigning MVPs were changed in the vault rules, which is not the official ruleset. (And hopefully never will be)

[DoubleSkulls]

Why in the world was rolling for skills done away with?

Did you play in a league where you didn't pick the skill, but rolled one up randomly? If so that was a house rule.

You have always had to make a skill roll to decide whether you've got a normal skill, stat increase or access to other skill groups.

[Dr. Doom]

And there is a skillcap in the LRB. After 7(?) increases, you dont gain any anymore.

[gken1]

sounds like a 3rd edition league that kept 2nd edition skill rules. random and built in peaking.

[Mad Jackal]

Dueggar.

You sound like you played in the Johnson County (Iowa) Bloodbowl league in Coralville/Iowa City?

If that is so, we've possibly met then........ I played for quite a while between 1997 and 2002.

They not only rolled the first 2 skills ( 6spp and 11 spp) at random off of GREAT charts written by Greg Kubly.... but they limited all non-starting skills to 4. -exceptions, Leader, each mutation, and Guard were limmited to 2, and Dirty Player was limited to one.

I have an old rules set still (sitting here next to my computer even). 28 pages of houserules/ clarifications -ah the day. -You said "balanced" and I say you were close. I must say the format only needed a better handicap solution (maybe inducements) - and the better "cap" than, "must cut to TR250.0 to start the season"

Because new teams and old teams were tough to mix.

I'm patiently waiting for the Vault to settle on a final form so that I can see what will seemlessly translate between the two.

But I'll be honest the guys still in it (starting season 5 after the Folding of the Game Store) are not at all interested in discussing the LRB or Vault.

gken, it wasn't peaking as such. It was forced diversity on your squad. Limmited to only 4 non starting block for example meant your choas teams had to develop different than "block, claw " on every piece. Or keep Wood Elves from being nothing but Blodge. WarDancers were "limmited" studs because strip ball was not the auto first skill. It was likely some crappy general skill , and a medicore gen skill, then Strip Ball at 26 spp.

[Mad Jackal]

Not that anyone cares, but I was right. Dueggar was one of the guys who taught me to play BB, then moved off.

And most of you guys were right, it was Major House rules.... -But great.


What do you guys think about random (but weighted) skills and a limit of 4 on non-starting skills ?

For example, Orcs and Humans (mong others) could only have up to 4 non-blitzers have block at one time.

Two was the limit on individual mutations, 2 on guard or leader and 1 dirty player per squad....

[JJB]

The trouble with such a system in my opinion, is that it affects the very bases on which some races were created, like chaos or elves - you prevent them from causing injuries, or being blodgers, and they get thrashed by those who have more starting skills like humans, orcs, or even norse and amazons all along the lives of the teams.

[Mad Jackal]

True, it's hard for you guys to visualize the effects of the weightings without seeing the charts. Plus you haven't seen the teams.

Norse did start to do well once they were introduced, but the fix was always to kill the AV 7 buggers... :d

Humans went a long time without a cup- or playoff spot. Dwarves before that. Orcs had one or two (I'm talking in the 20 seasons or so)...

Like Duegger said it ended up pretty balanced for some reason.

Hih Elves did bitch they didn't get to dodge more than humans, -but they were 4 ag with 3st catchers and so when layed competantly, still competetive. -Plus this was old school Diving Tackle world, so that was a boost to the ag teams. (Dark Elves / high elves.)

6 spp skill, random (weighted by race position)), 11 spp skill random(weighted by race /position), then 26 spp and further skills by choice.

Choas did better than you would think. what skill off the strength chart could a chaos warrior not use? So there was little need to cycle them.

Break Tackle, Mighty Blow, Standfirm, Guard, Pile On, Even multiple block was workable. (Thick skull was later added too)..

Beastmen would go general or strength depending on the coach/team/player.... But any that got 2 not so good skill were just line fodder anyway. Most 3 skill players in the league were a 2 skill combo and a crap skill.

Think "Pile on + mighty blow, break tackle human blitzer". Or Stand firm + guard + Nerves of Steel long beard. (Skills named in reverse order of acquisition.)

Human blitzers didn't like Multiple Block, and detested Break Tackle without a reduction in ag or strength boost.... And there is only so much a human lineman can do without block...4 kickers sucks man. LOL

Maybe someday I'll get permission to release the charts to see what you guys think of them.

Thanks for the honest reply skummy.

[JJB]

Thanks for the honest reply skummy.

[CorporateSlave3]

You sound like you played in the Johnson County (Iowa) Bloodbowl league in Coralville/Iowa City?

If that is so, we've possibly met then........ I played for quite a while between 1997 and 2002.

Dang, there was a Blood Bowl League in Iowa City from 1997-2002? If only it had started a wee bit earlier...I grew up there but didn't get to start BB until I moved to Madison, WI to go to school!