Newbie running High/Pro Elves, hello and help

Ravage · Post by **Ravage** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:14 pm

Greetings all

I have just been introduced to BB by a friend and as such am being de-virginized to the world of miniature gaming. Don't worry though, I have a long history of board gaming and other strategy gaming in my past.

The friend who introduced me to BB is starting a league within the month and I am trying to determine what team I should pick. I was originally leaning towards Pro Elves but I have been told that High Elves might be a better choice for me because of their higher AV across the board which counterbalances my loss of the possible Side Step and Nerves of Steel I could get by using the Pros.

Which team would lend themselves better to a true rookie like myself for league play, or should I consider another team entirely? Since it will be my first league I'd like to play a fairly simple-to-understand team that can play football - for my first league I'd like not to spend my whole time playing a "beats" team. Thanks in advance for any advice you can give!

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:19 pm

high elves are a great team, though they start off a bit lacking cause they are expensive

start with at least 2 rerolls and then after buying an apoth get another reroll, i might even be tempted after that to get a 4th reroll

a completion is just 2+ 2+ so after each game if you have anyone who just got the mvp and is on only 5spp in the next match just try and get him a spp from a completion to get some skills on the board

take kick early on a lineman, stripball is good early, you will need someone with tackle as well

doubles take guard, though you will need someone with dauntless eventually

welcome aboard

Ravage · Post by **Ravage** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:36 pm

Grumbledook wrote:high elves are a great team, though they start off a bit lacking cause they are expensive

start with at least 2 rerolls and then after buying an apoth get another reroll, i might even be tempted after that to get a 4th reroll

Yeah I've noticed both elf teams are fairly expensive, but if I simply buy a team box of high elves and run 6 linemen, 2 lions, 1 phoenix, and 2 dragons, that would leave me with $120k to buy 2 rerolls and have 20k left over to either sit around, buy FF, whatever. Or should I alter the lineup some? I read somewhere that elf teams don't necessarily need a thrower early in the season?

Perhaps just due to their high AG across the board?

take kick early on a lineman, stripball is good early, you will need someone with tackle as well

can you explain taking kick? Quite honestly I don't see it as a very useful skill, but as I said above I'm a newbie so I very easily could just not see/understand something about the skill

Thanks for the help

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:01 pm

just use some of the guys in the box as linemen to start with that will give you more starting money

as for kick, well against slow teams if you kick it deep it makes it harder for them to get down the pitch

and for passing teams who like to hold the ball on the thrower out of blitzing range, if you kick short then it means they have to make more rolls to get the ball back with the thrower, or if you lucky and get a blitz you can get under the ball

darthvincor · Post by **darthvincor** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:41 am

I'd start with more than 11 players, if I were you. Elves are fragile and expensive to replace.

slup · Post by **slup** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:53 am

Standard advise for newbies is go with orcs or humans.
They are easy to play and cheap to replace.
If you insist on elves max out on fanfactor (8 or 9).
It gives you more money in the long run.
See the "Tactics and Team Development" section.
there are some stickies about starting teams and skill choices.

Valen · Post by **Valen** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:52 am

High Elves are a great team to play, as Grumbledook said Kick is a god early skill on a lineman and Guard and Dauntless on doubles.

Aslo the high FF is a must as one or two deaths (which unfortuantley happens quite often with elves) are very costly to replace.

Welcome to the board

Fronko · Post by **Fronko** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:58 am

If you really want to stick to elves, go ahead with the given advice. Still, I would counsel you to take humans or orcs. They are easier to handle, because of a number of skill rerolls. If you are interested, I will tell you more about it. If not, there has been a lot of elven advice.

Valen · Post by **Valen** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:05 am

Fronko is proably correct OIrcs and Humans are probably an easier option, but as you have stated you dont really want a bashy team for your first season, go with the humans or high elves

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:27 am

Ravage wrote:Which team would lend themselves better to a true rookie like myself for league play, or should I consider another team entirely? Since it will be my first league I'd like to play a fairly simple-to-understand team that can play football - for my first league I'd like not to spend my whole time playing a "beats" team.

High Elves are not the easiest team to start with, but I don't think they are the hardest either. IMO AG 4 (which separates elves from the other teams) is maybe worth more to the newbie, who doesn't yet know what he should and should not be trying. High Elves are definitely preferable over Pro Elves though... AV 7 is gonna hurt!

Ravage wrote:Yeah I've noticed both elf teams are fairly expensive, but if I simply buy a team box of high elves and run 6 linemen, 2 lions, 1 phoenix, and 2 dragons, that would leave me with $120k to buy 2 rerolls and have 20k left over to either sit around, buy FF, whatever. Or should I alter the lineup some? I read somewhere that elf teams don't necessarily need a thrower early in the season? Perhaps just due to their high AG across the board?

Since you are just starting out, I think it would be best to use some of your models "by proxy" .. i.e. as linemen. I am drawn to the following starting roster:

2 Dragon Warriors (blitzers)
9 Linemen
2 rerolls
FF 7

... though you only need that high FF if you are playing an extended series of league games. If you are just playing a one-off game, you might consider exchanging most of it for an Apothecary @ 50k.

Note that I suggest not starting with a Phoenix Warrior (thrower). This is a very deliberate strategy for elf teams. As Grumbledook touched upon, it is very easy for a Lineman to get a Completion and so 1 SPP. SPPs lead to skills. If you start with a thrower, he will inevitably do all the throwing, and so soak up all those SPPs, which would be of better use elsewhere on your team.

Ravage wrote:
Grumbledook wrote:take kick early on a lineman, stripball is good early, you will need someone with tackle as well
can you explain taking kick? Quite honestly I don't see it as a very useful skill, but as I said above I'm a newbie so I very easily could just not see/understand something about the skill

Kick is a good skill and, though not necessarily the first I would pick, definitely one of the first. Kick allows you to get the kickoff pretty much exactly where you want it ... it better that halves the D6 scatter distance. Just by having it at all, your opponent will be forced to set up in ways he would not have wanted to. By kicking the ball deep, your opponent will be forced to split his team in two. One group will retrieve the ball, and the other half will try to start his offense. (If the ball had landed short, he would have been able to commit his entire team to the offense).

You are then in position to overwhelm one of these groups and isolate the other. At the very least, it should mean that scoring will take a turn longer than usual. I have won games solely by the use of Kick ... my opponent has 2 or 3 turns left to equalise; I kick deep; his chances of moving the ball from one end of the pitch to the other in that short a space of time is limited.

I disagree with Grumbledook about the Strip Ball and Tackle though. I think of these skills as those to be used against elves, rather than to be used by them. I find Strip Ball to be virtually useless. Last time I took it was on a Human Blitzer, who played 20 games without using it once! The Leap + Strip Ball combo is useful, but to use that you should get Leap first! I don't see where Tackle comes in, unless your league is set to have lots of Amazons and other Elves.

Dodge and Block will serve you better.

In terms of skill progression, I would be tempted by something along these lines:

Dragon Warrior > Dodge, then maybe Side Step or Leap (Dauntless, Jump Up or Guard on doubles).
Lineman > One with Kick, then mix between Block and Dodge (Guard or Leader on doubles).

Best of luck!

Joe

Ravage · Post by **Ravage** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:59 pm

thanks for all of the advice everyone

while the humans may be a better team for me, I have decided to run with the high elves... it may be a bit of a challenge and it might not work out well for me, but it's a decision I will have to live with and I didnt want to run humans since one of my friends in our upcoming league will already be playing with them

IMO AG 4 (which separates elves from the other teams) is maybe worth more to the newbie, who doesn't yet know what he should and should not be trying.

Nazgit I'm interested to know what you meant by this comment. I don't take offense (I AM a newbie) but can you elaborate a little more on why AG4 maybe is not as preferable to some other skills? The way I look at it, if I want to run/pass the ball more than Block the other team into oblivion, AG4 is going to help that cause greatly. Catching any accurate pass (without negative tackle zone modifiers) only requires a 2+ roll and dodging is much easier as well, so i can try and keep most of my team on the move and keep the ball moving. I know it's not as easy as all that, but the theory to me seems sound if that's the type of strategy I'll be bringing to the table. Feel free to correct

Also while Nazgit and Grumbledook both suggest AGAINST recruiting a thrower at the beginning of the season, I'm being tempted to do so anyway. a "Pass" reroll on throwing the ball will be much appreciated by my team and the last thing I will need are my linebackers fumbling the ball - and if I do desire my linebackers to earn completion spp's I can simply have them run handoffs, can't I? Whether I do or don't take the Phoenix Warrior off the rip though, I will probably take 2 rerolls and buy as much FF as I can once filling my 11-man roster, with an Apoth as my first purchase down the road. Or should a Phoenix Warrior be my first purchase if I don't take him in my starting lineup?

Thanks also for explaining Kick, it does seem like a good idea and once our league starts it will probably be my first lineman's skill

Sorry for asking so many questions again here but I am just trying to better understand how I should play this team and what I should be considering so try and forgive my newb-ness

thanks again for all the help

Gandhi · Post by **Gandhi** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:12 am

AG 4 IS great. But it can't compete with AG 3 +skill reroll like in a rookie Human team. It's quite a mathematical consideration but you should be surprised how many ones can be on a single die... (i learned it the hard way

) try to pass from rookie elf to rookie elf and the try to pass from rookie human thrower to rookie human catcher (both 140k) et voilá! The skills are of great help.

At least this is my guess on what Nazgit meant!

slup · Post by **slup** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:21 am

Ravage wrote:- and if I do desire my linebackers to earn completion spp's I can simply have them run handoffs, can't I?

Handoffs doesn't earn completion SPP.

I guess what Nazgit meant was that you are risking fewer turnovers with AG 4 than AG 3 when doing something the wrong way like starting a turn picking up the ball with a lineman.

The reason not to consider a thrower is to spread out SPP.
The difference between a good team and a great team is how developed your linemen are.
If you buy a thrower he will earn completion SPP that belongs to the linemen.
Building up a position player (nonlineman) is not difficult, building up a lineman is more of a challenge.
Besides 1 completion + a random MVP gives you a skill, so try to give all linemen at least 1 completion.

MickeX · Post by **MickeX** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:25 pm

I'd say the AG4 & the cost for it is what makes elves difficult to play for newbies. You suddenly get a lot more possibilities, since anyone can dodge on a 2+, but it's difficult for a new player to sort those possibilities out effeiciently enough to counter the drawbacks.

I like starting HE with
1 Catcher
10 linemen
3 RR
FF 6

But the suggestion above is nice as well.

Ravage · Post by **Ravage** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 1:31 pm

thank you all for the help, it has all definitely helped me understand the game and my chosen team better

it was my MISunderstanding that led me to believe that handoffs earned SPP's, but I can see why they do not since they don't require you to roll. very good clarification to know before I tried that in a game and got yelled at by my opponent hehe

i see the math behind AG4 versus AG3 + skill now for passing (75% chance to complete overall versus only 66% with AG4) but the catching is really only different by a 1-in-20 chance (83.3% with AG4 on an accurate pass versus 88.8% with AG3 + skill). Which leads me to believe it will be much more important to recruit a thrower before a catcher if I start without either player type in my roster.

i think i will be starting with nazgit's suggested lineup and go from there. slup's line of "good team versus great team" sort of rang home the point for me that I need to worry more about developing my team overall for the long-term in the league instead of worrying about having a thrower immediately which might help me win more games earlier in the season but hurt me in the long run.