Dwarf Leg Up

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 8:51 am

One of the reasons i've never been tempted to play Dwarfs is because of their lack of decent ball carriers. 2 Runners and 2 Blitzers to me do not give the team enough options with the ball. So i've been playing Chaos Dwarfs foe a while now as they have access to a dozen or so Hobgoblins as initial ball Carriers. My point is: When 4th Edition and 2k rules were released teams like High Elves, Dark Elves and Undead, all got access to 2 more additional positional players. So why was nothing done with Dwarfs. Were they seen as being more powerful than those teams to not need any improvement, or was it their access to Big Guys which was seen as a balancing factors. personnally ive never been truly happy with only 2 Blitzers as originally i saw these as being the mainstay of the team and expected to see 4 of them on the roster.

So in all only 6 positional players and only 4 of these ( and the team potential Ball carriers )

anyone else feel the same or as we have a few dwarf coaches on the board, do you feel thewy are balanced enough already.

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:49 am

Wow,

that's interesting. I had the same problem a while ago and with the choice dwarfs vs chaos dwarfs and also sticked to the hobbo fraction for the same reason.

I didn't expect many people out there to have a similar feeling for it.

People in the league I play are laughing at me and all favor dwarfs. For now they are laughing!! Let's see..

Now, as I read the threads about chaos dwarfs, also some people of this board seem to favor dwarfs and tend to think of the chaos dwarfs as one of the "worse" teams.

But I indeed believe that the runners are not that good and a primary (and at least at the beginning "easy") target, and with them gone the blitzers are the only ones left to properly handle the ball. A throwing option is also something for a later stage, so running with these few guys is all what is left.

My experience by watching other teams is that dwarfs need a development first to get rolling on offence. They are also expensive and for the start the team is left with even less ball handlers. And the arguments against the chaos dwarfs also apply for the dwarfs as well: no
access to agility skills, no speed.

I think Norse posted that dwarfs are not tournament winners, and this althogh they come with nice skills for the start as a big advantage.

So I am also interested to see wheter the dwarf coaches would have liked , let's say, also four blitzers!

Sputnik

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:12 am

At least with Chaos Dwarfs they get two awesome blitzers with the Bull Centaurs,who with a potential 9 MA, makes them a worthwhile risk as a ball carrier and TD Scorer. this option isn't available to the Dwarfs.

I'm sure most dwarf ciaches would love 4 Blitzers, I just wonder if they feel this would make them more balnced with the rest of the team or if they feel the dwarfs sre ok as they are.

really my arguement rests on my belief that Dwarfs are not tournament winners at the moment, whereas BloodBowl history suggests that they are as good as any other team, but with the current roster i don't see how they win consistently.

Although i'm sure coaches will now disagree and tell me that they've won tournaments consistentlly with dwarves for the past 5 years or so, I have personally yet to see it.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:24 am

I don't agree at all. Shane, our resident Dwarf coach, consistently wins WPS tournaments with Dwarves and I've taken an Online playoff scalp with my first Dwarf team.

In a tournament situation Dwarves have a several advantages in that they start with a lot of useful skills, they have high armour all 'round and thick skull. This stops them losing player skills (as common in many tournament formats) and ensures they don't suffer too much from player attrition (given that most coaches rarely have more than 12 players on a tournament roster)

Dwarves can be difficult to coach. You have to play "Dwarfball". Their weakness stems from the fact that they are pretty much limited to that style of play. Their strength is that if they can force that style of play they have a massive advantage.

I see no inherent problem with only having 4 AG3 players on the team. The standard lineman starts with an impressive suite of skills and has access to the strength list. It puts the Dwarves in a position where they do have to rely on 4 key players and have the rest of the team support them. That's just their style of play. I'd hate to see a change that introduced more AG3 players as I believe it would just make Dwarves a little more like any other team and not like Dwarves.

I would humbly suggest that if you find that you play better with a team that has more AG3 players then Dwarves are simply not your style. In my experience I've found Dwarf coaches to be the most frustrating and difficult to play against in tournaments.

M

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:37 am

I think your right in that dwarves probably dont suit my style of play, but i would still like to give them a go, but the lack of ball handlers is still giving me rerservations. So maybe the next team i go for will be dwarfs.

Hell why not i can lose just as well with them than with any other

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:41 am

Simple rule is your dodge dice have stars and arrows and skulls on them =)

Keep the game slow and tight so you emphasise your strengths and de-emphasise your weaknesses. Ideally the only time you should ever need to pass the ball is to get it into the cage quickly after a kickoff. Even then avoid it if you can.

Dwarves teach you good formation and field position. Invaluable skills to learn.

Marcus

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:26 am

Marcus wrote: Dwarves teach you good formation and field position. Invaluable skills to learn.

Marcus

Agreed, and it is also a plus in learning how the opposition thinks if you've played with that team yourself.

I'll try em next

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:38 am

In no way do Dwarves need a leg up. Sure 4 ball handlers is not the best... but then if they had 6 plus all that bashing they would be gross.

They are one of the few teams that can compete against a decent TR team as rookies - sure they may not win... but the game should be close.

I hope the new Khemri stats when they come out make them worse ball handlers too... 4 Mummies plus 4 Block Guard players with AG 3 is very strong. Make the Tomb Guardians ag 2 - that'll make them a challenge to play with!

Dave

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:59 am

Dangerous Dave wrote:I hope the new Khemri stats when they come out make them worse ball handlers too... 4 Mummies plus 4 Block Guard players with AG 3 is very strong. Make the Tomb Guardians av 2 - that'll make them a challenge to play with!
Dave

Your a hard man to please Dave,

all players less than AG3. It would be tempting never to try to pick the ball up, and just decimate the opposition.

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 12:03 pm

DD:
just an idea I had. Maybe I thought in the wrong direction, but anyway. So, where is the difference to the Chaos dwarfs on first offence?

Dwarfs: Chaos dwarfs:

6 longbeards 6 Chaos dwarfs

2 Slayer 2 Bull Cetaur

2 Blitzer 3 Hobgoblins

1 Runner

The first row is identical.

Both field 3 players with AG3.

Obviously a blitzer is far better than a hobgobbo, but therefore you get two players with St4! Now, all the bashing and more ball handlers? And once everybody gets block...

Is it really the AV7?

Is it worth it-makes the difference why you should take dwarfs instad?

Is the tactics so much different between the two teams if you don't give a BC the ball?

As I said, just an idea...

Sputnik

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 12:06 pm

Yeah but 2 of the Tomb Guards get Sure Hands and they have a 75% chance of picking it up. Get enough players around it and even if they don't pick it up, they may catch it!

Anyway since I'm playing Brian's Kehmri team (Animal House) with 2 Block, Dodge, Stand Firm, Guard Tomb Guards...... who pick up the ball, dodge, hand off, dodge and score needig gfis...... you can see my point!

Dave

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:07 pm

BBMag3 contains a letter from a Finnish coach. This letter voices the same complaints: Dwarves need more help. The editor disagreed, but asked for more opinions

To answer an earlier question, Dwarfs didn't get an additional leg up because they got the Ogre. We all know the Ogre doesn't really belong there - and we're working on that - but that's where we stand at the moment.

The BBMag3 letter contained three suggestions for Dwarf teams:

1. Runesmith
2. 4 Blitzers
3. ST+1 for any Slayer on a roll of doubles

I think the Runesmith rules were pretty damn good, and I'll make every effort to fold them into our experimental Magic Items article, whenever it comes out. Four Blitzers...well, probably not going to happen for the reasons stated. The Ogre will probably disappear in the future, but we should have experimental Secret Weapon rules by then. They'll include a Deathroller in some capacity, of course

ST+1 for Slayers on doubles...well, definitely not an official possibility. But it might be fun and in character for your league, if you don't mind monster Slayers

The coach who wrote the letter was much like the coaches here: he focused on all the negatives without ever once mentioning all that Block, Tackle, AV9, Thick Skull, and Strength skill access!

Ok, enough rambling. Cheers!

-Chet

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:08 pm

BTW, the Khemri team is not a great ball handling team, but it's not bad, I guess.

-Chet

Post by **Thadrin** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:10 pm

I came second in the T5 tournament with Dwarfs. I won more games than anyone else, but lost to Marcus cos when that boy wins he does it in style

.
I reached my league's last semi finals with Dwarfs.
Longfang came second at Ressurection with Dwarfs.

Dwarfs are just fine. Sure the low AG is a real irritant, but I couldn't live with AG7 (that said, my Amazon and Wood Elf opponents at T5 walked away almost intact...).

More than any other race, Dwarfs are a team you can either play or you can't, and sometimes you'll just get one of those games where you lose a couple of guys to early injury rolls or similar and you're in trouble. Hell, you get those with nearly any race.

The only Leg up I think Dwarfs need is the secret weapon rules to make the Death roller a SW not a star player, and - if the rules become official - Kickers....but then, the things I'd like to see there would affect more than just dwarfs.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:41 pm

Sputnik,

Chaos Ds and Dwarves are both strong teams. Choas D's are a little better at moving the ball (more AG 3 and faster - Bull Centaurs) - the Dwarves are a bit better at bashing - high av and more block.

Not sure that either team is better than the other. However, if you want more ball handling, plus a bit more speed go for CDs.... if all you want to do is grind... then Dwarves are it!

Dave