True Running Team

[Teabag]

Thanks so much everyone for all the feedback, positive or otherwise!

A few comments on what has been said so far:

I'd say Lizardmen are already a purely running team. Especially with the stunty modifier to passing ranges. An occasional HMP but aside from that...

Thanks for saying you like the team. Granted, the Lizardmen are probably the closest to a pure running team. But see below…

So how does Agility skill access define a team as a passing team? Catch (which would be fantastic on those runners for hand-offs)? The ever-popular Diving Catch?

I should have said that this team lacks access to both Agility and Passing skills. Therefore, like Lizardmen, it cannot pass the ball with any certainty at all (both teams have no Passing skills), but unlike Lizardmen it cannot gain Agility skills to help the players run and dodge through the opposing team’s lines (no access to Agility skills). This team has to rely on brute strength (and good speed) to barge it’s way through. The Runners are the only players with Dodge (and unless you roll doubles on another player’s SPP increase it will remain that way) and have access to Strength skills instead of Agility. But they, and the Blockers, are not designed to be a brawl-machine. Instead, I meant them to be capable in blocking but intent on scoring. The Runners job is to get the ball and move, move, move. The Blockers are there to tie up the opposing team’s threatening players and protect the Runners, not to violently take out the opposition.

I’m probably not making myself clear here, but this is the intention of the team. It’s kind of a running team but not in the way that non-passing teams, such as Dwarves or Chaos, currently run the ball (i.e. the cage or something similar). This team is designed (hopefully) to run the ball in an attempt to score as quickly and as often as possible. It is not meant to be a brawling team.

Imagine a sturdier (but not heavier-hitting) Wood Elf team with no passing/agility access. Does anyone think that such an idea would work? Or is it just me?

A very running team, designed to counter throwing and focus on running, catch allows RR's of interceptions and RR's for handoffs...

This is a well-designed team but very different to what I intended. The Half-Elf team can throw, can catch, can intercept. This ‘Tilean’ team cannot (or not without some difficulty). When on the defensive, the Blockers shouldn’t be on the field (too slow) or on the LoS. The Runners should be deep in the backfield picking off stray runners/catchers. They shouldn’t be attempting to prevent the passes, just hitting the ballcarriers and then moving the ball as fast as they can back down the field... without throwing.

And, to be fair and brutally honest, I (like most other people who design new teams) am hoping that someone at GW sees this and likes it enough to make it Official/Experimental. The Half-Elf team never will be Official/Experimental simply because it doesn’t fit the Blood Bowl/Warhammer fluff. The Warhammer world is a rarity amongst fantasy settings in that there are no Half-Elves.

[quote="narcotic”]The positional players are flawed:

This would be the only team that can have up to 4 of a position that begins with 3 Skills instead of the normal 0-2 slot (e.g Wardancer, Witchelf, Troll Slayer), and[/quote]
Agreed. But consider that this team has a very limited number of positional players, which compensates for that. A Human team has three positional players, with a total of six skills. The ‘Tilean’ team has two and five. It does focus a larger number of skills in a smaller number of players but it also paints a target on their heads.

And, for the record, isn’t Frenzy a Trait? As is Thick Skull and Dauntless. So, technically, the Witch Elf only starts with two skills and the Troll Slayer only one. Of course, if you meant to say that no team has a 0-4 slot for a player who starts with three (or more) skills and/or traits, then that would be correct. You would be wrong in saying 0-2 is normal however. Chaos Dwarf coaches can take 0-6 Blockers (with three skills/traits), Dwarf coaches can take 0-12 Longbeards (with three skills/traits), Goblin coaches can take 0-16 Goblins (with three skills/traits), and Halflings can take more tha 0-4, as can Norse, and… well, you get the idea.

[quote="narcotic”]those Runners are the only player in BB that begin with Dodge and have acces to ST skills, making them superior Blodgers.[/quote]
Well, as Ithilkir said, what about Amazon Blitzers? And don’t forget, the whole squad of both Norse and Amazon teams can get Blodge with their first SPP roll. This team only has four players who will ever be able to get Blodge (aside from rolling doubles on the SPP chart, of course).

I don’t feel the Runner should not be considered a superior Blodger (he’s not meant to be a Wardancer, capable of doing practically everything) but maybe I need to work on him more.

And besides, if Strength skills make you a superior Blodger, then surely Agility skills do too? I mean, you might not pack quite as hard a punch, but you’ll stand more of a chance of getting to and from the target. And if this is the case then there are countless “superior Blodgers” already in existence.

[quote="narcotic”]And having ST4 guard players is also too strong.[/quote]
Fair enough. Although Guard does fit the idea of the player (so this bit of fluff is good but unbalancing), being the protector of the Runners. And personally, I’ve never thought Guard was so tough. Remember that these guys don’t have Block to begin with and will probably never get Dodge. So they’re not unbreakable, just like Black Orc Blockers.

[quote="Vero”]Teabag, sorry to say this but I'll say it anyway. Two+ skills on a rookie player is a bit overdevelopped (I know some rookies have three but those are from not lrb). Getting raid of dodge, sidestep on runners and/or strenght-skill access will tone them down.[/quote]
Okay, well as I’ve said above, practically 75% of the teams from the LRB have rookie players with 3+ skills and/or traits. I don’t want to lose Dodge because that’s what the player is all about. Getting rid of Sidestep might work, however.

[quote="Vero”]What about getting faster linos, avarage blockers and good runners or usual linos, avarage blitzers and good runners?[/quote]
The first idea is too much like the Lizardmen. Not sure about the second idea at all.

[quote="Skummy”]I like what you're trying to do, but as it stands, the blocker actually looks like he would be my main ballcarrier. I'd suggest lowering the blocker's agility to keep him from doing so. Making him a 2 AG makes him a Black Orc clone, so how about a 1 AG? Solves the problem of expense rather nicely, and gives him a niche role on the team as opposed to a potential scorer.[/quote]
Thanks for the positive feedback, Skummy. But why would you make a MA4/no Sure Hands player your ball-carrier? You must be crazy! And AG 1 is way too low for the position he needs to fulfil. However, I am toying with some other ideas to fix this.

[Teabag]

Okay, so after a lot of thought, this is what I’ve come up with:

This, as you will recall, was the original team:

Qty Position MA ST AG AV Skills (Skill Access) Cost
0-12 Linemea 6 3 3 8 None (General) 50,000 gp
0-4 Blockers 4 4 3 9 Guard (General, Strength) 110,000 gp
0-4 Runners 8 3 3 8 Sure Hands, Dodge, Sidestep (General, Strength) 120,000 gp

Re-Roll Cost: 50,000 gp

A lot of people have said the Blocker’s AG was too high and the Guard skill had to go. So I rethought the player a little and decided to make it more of a preventative player – a player who can move fast enough to keep up with the Runners but is there to take the hit instead. This being the case, I kept the AV as 9 but upped the MA to 7 (a big difference – and this makes this player the fastest heavily armored player, which I’m not sure I’m happy with). However, I dropped the ST to 3 and lost the Guard skill, replacing it instead with Block. I also lost the Sidestep skill on the Runner but other than kept him pretty much the same. I added another type of player, called a Distractor (it’s these guys job to get in the TZs of opposing players to stop them getting to the Runners). With the introduction of this new player type, I was able to reduce the number of Blockers and Runners that were available.

This meant the team now looked like this:

Qty Position MA ST AG AV Skills (Skill Access) Cost
0-12 Lineman 6 3 3 8 None (General) 50,000 gp
0-2 Blockers 7 3 3 9 Block (General, Strength) 90,000 gp
0-2 Distractors 6 3 3 8 Dodge, Sidestep (General, Strength) 70,000 gp
0-2 Runners 8 3 3 8 Sure Hands, Dodge (General, Strength) 100,000 gp

Re-Roll Cost: 50,000 gp

[Vero]

Teabag, you do type a lot

It's definately not overpowered anymore. Those blockers seem to be more blitzers (high movement) than blockers but that's just a name. I'd recommend to allow four of them as they're not too strong but fast which I think you wanted to be the backbone of this team. I'd also keep the number strength-access players in six (in case of 0-4 allowance)

You said that dodge is what the runners are and that this team should smash it's way to endzone, decide what this team is going to be good at (No offence). Without dodge those runners would be cheaper but as they're stars of the team it really doesn't matter. I've never seen runners with strength-access but it really would help running the ball if ballcarrier had guard also.

Two agility skills for non-agility-access guy is a bit much, although won't make them too powerful. Give it a though and let be if you still want it to be that way.

For development: Doubles will come, on avarage every sixth roll is a double so there's space for plenty of dodge afterwards too. It wouldn't be a bad idea to take off those distractors strength access and give them agility-access instead. I really didn't catch why you wouldn't want to give them agility-access as there's no passing-access so most of folk won't develop a passing game with this team.

Check this out to understand why certain skillcombos were accepted. It's also good to read to when a serious new team is "ready". And yes, starting skills means usually all skills and traits that a rookie player has.

Edit: Prices need a bit adjustment. With your latest roster one could take all positionals, 11 players, ff8 and three rerolls for a million, so raising rerolls to 60 or 70k should be considered (and/or allow more positionals).

[Underdog]

I like the concept a lot. Possibly as a new Human team as you suggest.

If I were to do this team to keep it simple I would maybe make the blockers into human blitzers allowing them access to guard and making them good allrounders. This team would therefor be the same as the human team in effect but with the thrower & cather possitions replaced by the runner who has the best of both MA8 ST3 AG3 AV8 Dodge Surehands.

[Underdog]

Just to clarify what I ment in that last post.

0-12 Lineman 6338 (G) 50,000
0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block (G,ST) 90,000
0-4 Runner 8338 Surehands, Dodge (G,AG) 110,000

[leblanc13]

I have noticed that other than the werewolf which is a supernatural creature, no positional player that has a starting movement of 8 has an AV better than 7. You may want to change the runner to 7 3 3 7 so that it fits in more with the fluff. Usually fast players wear less armor. This would also make them a little cheaper. I would also consider raising reroll cost as this team would not be capable of the flexibility of a normal human team. I would think that this team should probably have a 60,000gc reroll cost instead of 50,000.

[Uber]

Looking at this, the team goes from ridiculously overpowered to quite reasonable. However, I think a guy with MA7 shouldn't also have AV9. Also, I think that stand firm would be better suited to the concept of a running team than side step. I'd go with something like:

0-12 Lineman 6338 G 50K
0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block, Stand Firm GS 90K
0-4 Runner 8338 Dodge, Sure Hands GS 100K

my .02 euro

[leblanc13]

Uber,

You made the Blitzer the same as a human blitzer in all aspects except you gave them a trait (Stand Firm) and made them the same cost as the human blitzer.

This still seems overpowered to me.

Why change the Blitzer or the lineman positions if you want a Human running team. If you are going to give them players off of the Human team roster, just use the same positional player stats. What really needs to be handled here is the runner position and a ball handler position which will replace the catchers and throwers on the human team.

Uber and Teabag, why not try this?

TILEANS
0-12 Lineman 6 3 3 8 None (General) 50k
0-4 Runner 8 3 3 7 Dodge, Catch (General, Agility) 90k
0-4 Blitzer 7 3 3 8 Block (General, Strength) 90k
0-2 Ball handler 6 3 3 8 Sure Hands (General, Agility) 60k

Having a Ball Handler position allows your runners to be on the line so they don't have to get the ball and then run forward. This is cheaper than the human thrower because he drops the pass skill. Also I changed his skill access from general, pass to general, agility.

Runners cost more because they have a higher strength and are able to take a hit better. While I gave them the same armor as the catcher to reflect their faster speed. Catch gives them the ability to reroll a hand off from the Ball Handler position players.

Also, It allows you to spread your skills out across a wider front making sure you are not too reliant on any one player.

[Uber]

I knew that price seemed a bit low, he should be more expensive then. Also, the point of the team is no agility or passing access, so that you have to ram your way through.

[m0nty_au]

Hmmm, a running-only team.

0-12 Linemen 50,000 7 3 2 8 G
0-4 Blockers 100,000 5 4 1 9 Block S
0-4 Runners 80,000 8 3 3 7 Sure Hands G
Allies: 0-1 Ogre
Rerolls 60k

A running team needs to be speedy but not too agile. The above team is loosely modelled on the Khemri, who are forced to be a running team through lack of any other viable game plan, but aren't fast enough to do anything more than crawl down the field.

The Linemen are distinctive, which is important for any new team. The Blockers are not meant to be ball carriers, thus the AG1 and no G access, but 4 of them make a formidable caging combo... although lack of Tackle would be a weakness. The Runners would most likely suck up the SPPs, leading to interesting team management issues.

Starting rosters would likely be a choice of:
2 blockers, 3 runners, 6 linemen, 3RR, FF8
1 blocker, 4 runners, 6 linemen, 3RR, FF9 + 10k
1 ogre, 2 blockers, 1 runner, 7 linemen, 2RR, FF9

[leblanc13]

I see where you guys are going with giving a lack of agility skills, but shouldn't a runner be adept at dodging in and out of tackle zones and get access to agility?

Also, ST4 players on a human team to me is a little bit much to start with. It will allow that player to possibly become a ST6 player and rival Big Guys.

[m0nty_au]

By that logic, everyone other than Big Guys should be ST2 just so they can't be as strong as on Ogre with two +ST skills. Erm... no.

[plasmoid]

Hi Terry,
players become more expensive with every skill or stat added. I hope you agree that this means that pricing does reflect power, albeit not in a clear cut 1:1 relation.

>No offence, Martin, but this is nonsense. If this had anything to do with
>game balance then the teams would be really really unbalanced.
which "the teams" are you referring to.

>Most of the teams are not "a little under 900K". In fact, they vary wildly
>in amount.
Hence the "most", and not "all". Sure there are deviations. Naturally, the stunties are way under - but no doubt these are considered weak/substandard teams.
The Amazons (AFAIK) is the cheapest team at 790K, and that isn't too far from the 900K mark. (Vamps is not an official team).

Admitted, the elf teams are over 900K, but only one breaks 1000K.
IMO, with 19 (?) official teams, and only one over the 1000K mark, I figure that this is a pretty good indication not to go too high.

>And my team is not the most expensive. The Ogre team is 1320K.
But the ogre team is not official. And it is overpowered.

Cheers
Martin

[Teabag]

players become more expensive with every skill or stat added. I hope you agree that this means that pricing does reflect power, albeit not in a clear cut 1:1 relation.

Of course, so far as players go. But not so far as teams go, where it’s the mix of players, the number of players, how those players do or do not complement each other, the cost of Team Re-Rolls, the cost of an Apothecary, starting skills, access to Blodge, access to all other skills, access to traits, and so on and so on, that reflect the team’s power, not the overall maxed-out 11-man squad cost.

But the ogre team is not official. And it is overpowered.

So we’re talking about designing a new team but not including Experimental teams (that are teams that have been newly designed, that will probably soon be official, and so should be the perfect guide to designing a team), right? I’m sorry, but how warped an argument is that?

which "the teams" are you referring to.

Well, all of them, naturally. That’s why I said “the teams” and not “some teams.”

Hence the "most", and not "all". Sure there are deviations. Naturally, the stunties are way under - but no doubt these are considered weak/substandard teams.

Most? You’re kidding, right? Let’s assume that 100k or more is the break-off point (and I’m being generous here). In that case, out of the 19 Official teams, more than half (10) are not “a little under 900k”! How can less than half be most?

And for the record, the Dwarves are not way under. They are 850k, which is only a little under 900k. Do you really consider a 50k difference to be way under? I don’t think you do as you claimed in your first post that the Elves are “just under 1000k” and they’re 60k under. So by your logic 60k is just under but 50k is way under?

And I don’t really think of the Dwarves as being a “weak/substandard” team (although they are weaker since losing their Big Guy access), do you?

The Amazons (AFAIK) is the cheapest team at 790K, and that isn't too far from the 900K mark. (Vamps is not an official team).

Nope. The cheapest team is the Halflings at 550k. Amazons aren’t even in the bottom three. And 790k isn’t far from the 900k? 110k is a big drop in my mind. (Oh, and you said nothing about excluding unofficial/experimental teams in your original message, so please stop bringing them up in your defence now, okay? Thanks.)

Admitted, the elf teams are over 900K, but only one breaks 1000K.

Well, the Elf teams aren’t the only teams that are over 900k (there’s one more at least, two if you say 900K or higher, and four if you include Ogres and Vampires). And two Elf teams break the 1000k mark, not one.

IMO, with 19 (?) official teams, and only one over the 1000K mark, I figure that this is a pretty good indication not to go too high.

As I said, two teams over the 1000k mark. But the original team was too high, I will admit. However, and as I said before, this has nothing (or at best very little) to do with how balanced the teams are.

[leblanc13]

My point is Monty that you are making a starting human player as strong as a Black Orc. IMO that does not fit in with the fluff of the game. I apologize if my original statement was flawed, but to me this doesn't make sense.

Chaos warriors start with ST4, but they have been warped by the power of Chaos.

I disagree with any ST4 starting human player. Zug, Griff, and Zara had to become stars to get that good.

Besides if I was ever able to remotely believe in such a strong starting human fluff-wise they would have to be from Norsca or Kisev where barbarians and strength rule supreme. They wouldn't be from wimpy Tilea or Estallia. I mean, come on .