Dauntless and Frenzy

SBG · Post by **SBG** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:57 am

Hi there!

We just played a game where the Troll Slayers were heavily counting on Dauntless ! What happens if they miss the Dauntless roll and then Frenzy ?

Do they get to roll it only once for both Block actions or can they roll it again for the second Block? IMO, this would count as using Dauntless twice in the same turn, am I right ?

Fred

Piepgrass · Post by **Piepgrass** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:00 am

You have to roll for Dauntless every time you use it. Which means that to use it with frenzy involves 2 rolls (unless the opponent goes down on the first hit)

Poul

SBG · Post by **SBG** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 11:00 am

So that means you can use it more than once per turn ?

Fred

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 2:08 pm

So that means you can use it more than once per turn ?

You can use Dauntless before any block. If you check the LRB, you'll see that you can use each trait more than once per turn unless specified otherwise.

Cheers!

-Chet

P.S. This means that it's possible to FAIL Dauntless for the second block of a Frenzy after making it the first time!

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 5:27 pm

D*mn O*PA ..... its confused so many folks.

The new rules are not one skill per action UNLESS they say they are.

So Break Tackle, Leap, Dodge, etc. can only be used once a turn because they say they can only be used once.

Dauntless even if it was not a trait could be used more than once because the skill has nothing in it limiting its use in the description.

Block is a skill, but if I Multiple Block I can use it on both player to knock them down. Same with Tackle. Forget that the O word ever happened and you'll be better off for it.

Galak

SBG · Post by **SBG** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 1:00 am

Thanks Galak and Chet, it's a lot more clear for me now !

Fred

Pink Horror · Post by **Pink Horror** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 3:13 am

No, Galak, they screwed things up again.

From the LHB, pg. 34:

"All skills may be used once per action unless stated otherwise."

Pink Horror

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 1:27 pm

Oh cripes ... Chet/JKL can you please remove the sentence that Pink just showed us .... you guys are just asking for a world of hurt and confusion with that in there.

There is NO reason to include that sentence in the LRB. It clarifies NOTHING and confuses everything.

Galak

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 1:31 pm

Actually, it's in there from the Rules Review. You can go back and check it out yourself if you can find the original documents. If you can actually show where it muddies something (preferably without a rules-lawyer argument, which can muddy anything), then I'm sure we can get Andy to remove it between now and October.

Thanks.

-Chet

Pink Horror · Post by **Pink Horror** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 8:06 pm

Chet, how about multiple block and tackle?

Pink Horror

Pink Horror · Post by **Pink Horror** » Sun Jul 21, 2002 8:25 pm

From what I can tell, it's not in the original documents.

This is the only similiar statement I can find, and it's in the intro:

Meanwhile modifications to the skills rules generally limit the use of a skill to only once each per action (aka ‘each skill once per action’ or ESOPA for short).

All that statement seems to be in an explanation for some of the changes to the skills. I doubt it was meant to be taken as a rule by itself.

Galak is almost right. The sentence of page 34 is what is known as a "Cover Your Ass" sentence. It's there to cover any accidents like the one with Sure Feet. So, there is a reason for it to be there, but it's not a good one.

If Multiple Block (I accidently wrote Mighty Blow before) + Tackle isn't good enough for you, how about the possibly of using Catch twice in the same action?

But is that how we write rulebooks now? Should you put in a little change and then ask how it messes things up? Why should Galak have to think up some form of conflict just to get you to remove a line that doesn't have to be there and that confuses some people?

Pink Horror

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 1:03 pm

But is that how we write rulebooks now? Should you put in a little change and then ask how it messes things up? Why should Galak have to think up some form of conflict just to get you to remove a line that doesn't have to be there and that confuses some people?

[soapbox]

From what I've seen, we now write rulebooks like this:

1. Rulebook is written.
2. People read it.
3. Someone has a legitimate question.
4. Question addressed.
5. Someone else has another legitimate question.
6. Question addressed or promised to be addressed at a later date.
7. Repeat 3-6 for a while.
8. When it looks as if everything's been covered...someone else asks an uninformed question or another person plays rules lawyer.
9. Writers throw up their hands in despair.

We'll get back to this later. Promise. In the meantime:

* MBlock is an issue no matter how you word the rules. As far as its intersection with Tackle, you're rolling one die and applying the results once. This constitutes one use of the skill to one die roll.
* The odds of using Catch twice in the same action are slim and none. The player with this skill is usually not taking an action.

Really, we'll get back to this stuff later. The LRB is a work in progress. I possess neither the time nor the energy to stay on top of it right now, and I'm not a GW employee. We'll get back to it again in October. For now, though, I don't see a problem with the rule as worded. If you can come up with a better example, I'm all ears. Until then, the fewer changes we make, the better.

[/soapbox]

-Chet

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 2:43 pm

Chet,

I understand the soapbox, but to me that sentence is unreasonably confusing.

I do feel that Multiple Block is less confusing without that sentence with the application of Block, Tackle, Mighty Blow, etc.

Its rare but I have had the active player try to catch a bouncing ball twice during this season of the MBBL2.

Given that Leap, Dodge, Sure Feet, etc. say in the skill that they can only be used once I don't see the reason to have the catch all question.

Dauntless and Frenzy is a good example. Explaining to a newbie that Dauntless can be used before each block of a Frenzy is a pain in the butt ... there is no reason anymore to have skill vs trait be one use vs multiple use. Just allow all skills to be used multiple times and for the ones that matter put in the line that you've already added to the LRB.

The reason it is important is that Andy is saying that the LRB 1.3 is what is going to be PRINTED .... SOON ..... seems to me if we are going to mention problems ... now is the time to do so before it sees print.

Galak