New Idea (new thread)

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 6:36 pm

OK We now have X pages of discussion on Chet's suggestion for changing some skills which effectively elimates the need to have a casualty roll (Sigurd's table)..... now after all that, I ask are the proposed changes worth it?

Lots of people have contributed to this and although everyone seems to think most of the suggestion is good (myself included), when it comes down to it we all disagree about some of the finer and shall I say more important points:-

Eg:-

Can you reroll armour and injury rolls

Should Pro be a skill or a trait, should it be 2+ or 4+ and can it allow armour and / or injury rolls

Mighty Blow at +1 to armour seems to be disliked by many

Piling On - we can't agree on changes

Claw - we can't agree on changes

RSC - Some of us mourn its loss

Skinks / Gobbos ? Flings - the +1 stunty adjustment on the injury table works for me.....

Now I am leaving out IGMEOY and fouling from this part since I feel it is a separate topic (although if we leave in mods for injury, the +2 or +2 could stay too!).

So I would like to go full circle......

Why don't we leave it as it currently is? Most people are happy with the skills as they stand and also the game mechanics. Ok we have an extra table.... but surely 1 extra table (Sigurd's) is better than having changes to skills that most of us have different views on?

By all means test a version of the proposed changes but, I for one, am starting to feel that we are proposing significant changes to fundamental parts of the game (Strength / Physical skills) purely to remove 1 simple table.... WHY?

Dave

PS I do think that the debate has been worth it and trying to simplify the clutter is worth the effort. However, the reason I have come back to where we started is because of the detail that we have gone into in the discussion.

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 7:33 pm

Bottom line? It all depends on how much people would use their TRR:s on rerolling armour rolls, but it seems to me that strength teams are screwed up in this trade, given the fact that MB and POn are certainly downgraded. This change is certainly giving normal players a boost in the amount of casualties they are going to cause, but will most certainly hurt strength teams, which might not be a good thing.

Based on this statement, I believe we can say that attrition will rise with this system: it's rising for most players, or has the capacity to rise for most players (courtesy of Pro re-rolls on AV), because players with General skill access outnumber those with Strength skill access. Mind you, the ability of Orc Blitzers with MB would go down, while the ability of the Norse Lineman with Pro would go up. And that's definitely a mark in the "strength teams will get hurt" column.

Two things to note, however:

1. The Orc Blitzer with Mighty Blow still causes casualties at a higher rate than the Norse Lineman with Pro.
2. The Orc Blitzer can choose Pro on his next skill roll and get even better at causing casualties because Pro will combine with Mighty Blow. The Norse Lineman needs doubles to come up with Mighty Blow, however.

And another note:

3. Orc Blitzers and BOBs with Mighty Blow would become less powerful, but Orc Lineman with Pro would become more powerful.

Now imagine your typical Orc team. The BOBs are taking Block and Guard, Block and MB, Block and Tackle. Those with MB become a little less powerful as a result of this change. The Blitzers are taking MB and Tackle, Tackle and Strip Ball, Pro and MB, with some Guard mixed in. Those with MB alone aren't causing casualties as well as they did before, but the Linemen with Block and Pro are developing into better hitters as well.

So yes, MB would go down a bit. And players who had nothing but MB would suffer a little bit. But the rest of their players would become better hitters, and even though Orcs are the most position-heavy race in all of Blood Bowl, I wager that your typical Orc team would see an increase in its damage capabilities rather than a decrease.

Ok, gotta go think some more. Keep the informal poll results coming in.

-Chet

[Edited to correct something that was just flat-out wrong!]

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 8:14 pm

My two cents

* PRO: Option A (leave it as is)
* DIRTY PLAYER: Option B (+1 to AV and Guard like fouling assists)
* PILING ON: Option B (AV re-roll)
* MIGHTY BLOW: Option A (+1 to AV)
* CLAW: Option C (+2 to AV, -1 to ball handling)
* STUNTY: A (leave Skinks as is MA 8/Stunty without the +1 injury is pretty good IMO)

Galak

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 9:00 pm

* PRO: * Option C: Change the success rate (2+? 6?) and classify it as a trait or skill accordingly.
This would need extensive playtesting IMO or it could become unbalanced VERY easily.
* DIRTY PLAYER: * Option A: +2 to AV.
(option B makes too much in game clutter in a big punch up)
* PILING ON: * Option A: +1 for Stunties, +3 for Big Guys, +2 for everyone else. This uses size instead of ST values, just like Right Stuff.
* MIGHTY BLOW: A skill should never cancel a trait or a racial characteristic!
* CLAW: * Option A: +2 to AV (unchanged).
* STUNTY: Option A: Leave them unchanged.
Anything else will cause a riot. I don't believe option C really fits. A & B are tweaks that change very litte but C improves them quite a bit. Makes no sense to me.

I like this idea, Chet but I really thing that before you change a bunch of skill around it should be playtested with the existing skills. This will give you a better idea of what and how needs to be changed. IMO it's unwise to change aspects of a game based on untested changed in the mechanics.
Some things need to be changed obviously before hand, like stunty, but why mess with Mighty Blow or Dirty Player before you know what will really happen?
[/b]

mrinprophet · Post by **mrinprophet** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 9:25 pm

* PRO: Option A (leave it as is)
* DIRTY PLAYER: Option B (+1 to AV and Guard like fouling assists)
* PILING ON: Option A
* MIGHTY BLOW: Option A
* CLAW: Option A
* STUNTY: Option A

I very rarely post regarding rules, stats, etc. because I am new to the game. Having been introduced and, subsequently, fallen in love with BB when the 4th edition gold rules were king, I am use to seeing the rules change. I like the prospect of making things simpler, but I kinda agree with Dave.
Another concern is that the standard progression for all lineman would be block, followed by pro. Heck, pro could be the skill of choice now. I think pro would be too powerful. Just the thoughts of a newbie.
-CA

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:30 am

Based on this statement, I believe we can say that attrition will rise with this system: it's rising for most players, or has the capacity to rise for most players (courtesy of Pro re-rolls on AV), because players with General skill access outnumber those with Strength skill access. Mind you, the ability of Orc Blitzers with MB would go down, while the ability of the Norse Lineman with Pro would go up. And that's definitely a mark in the "strength teams will get hurt" column.

even though Orcs are the most position-heavy race in all of Blood Bowl, I wager that your typical Orc team would see an increase in its damage capabilities rather than a decrease.

I agree: attrition will rise slightly - at least rookie teams who even occasionally spend TRR's on armour rolls will get more caasualties. But what I'm concerned at the moment is how the increase after advancing a bit is distributed between teams. I'd be inclined to think that the strength teams would receive a smaller increase compared to other teams. Or considering the fact that advanced ST teams tend to use their MB players to hit opponents, their casualty rate might even decrease!

Yes, a Orc Blitzer with MB would be less effective. I'm asking how many times can we make strength skills slightly worse?
Lately we have degraded Stand Firm, MultiBlock, MB,
now we'd add PilingOn(+1/+2/+3) and MB (again) to the list.
I'm asking that shouldn't we be giving something to the strength teams for a change instead of taking something away from them in the name of streamlining?

Yes, a beginning strength team, no MB, would be better as they could use TRR's to increase their casualty rate. (Do note, however, that the 1,72 times increase happens only when using TRR's, so the increase will not be nearly as dramatic)
But how about the situation when teams have advanced already quite a bit? A favourite skill choice of strength team hitters, MB, has lost bite seriously, while the skills of the agility teams remain as effective as they used to be!
If a ST team has to burn a reroll for a MB blocker to have about the same casualty rate as he used to, then this certainly does weaken ST teams - TRR's are needed for other things too. Also there might be several blocks each turn.

Needless to say that playtesting results would be needed to confirm these fears.

Furelli · Post by **Furelli** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:17 am

* PRO: Option A (leave it as is)
* DIRTY PLAYER: Option B (+1 to AV and Guard like fouling assists)
* PILING ON: Option B (AV re-roll)
* MIGHTY BLOW: Option A (+1 to AV)
* CLAW: Option C (+2 to AV, -1 to ball handling)
* STUNTY: B (Getting rid of the stunties on the lizardmen team will simply turn them into an extremists version of the Chaos Dwarves)(Option B - AV 6 and 50k keeps the skinks squishy.)

Furelli.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 9:42 am

* PRO: 4+ and trait
* DIRTY PLAYER: +1 to Av allow assists in TZ's.
* PILING ON: No change
* MIGHTY BLOW: +1 Av
* CLAW: +1 Av
* STUNTY: no preference

Zy-Nox · Post by **Zy-Nox** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:59 am

There seems to be a divide on dirty player , some want +2 and some want the +1 and gaurd,
Well I dont know if this has been suggested before but what about giving DP's a 9+ penalty roll like secret weapons,and leave them at +2 AV.

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 12:11 pm

The reason I favour +2 on DP rather than "Foul Guard" is that it's simple. "Foul Guard" is just going to cloud things up. I have rookie coaches who literally can't figure out Guard... as they are just starting to understand blocking assists.

mrinprophet · Post by **mrinprophet** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:03 pm

Neo... I agree. Figuring out how many die to throw when guard is involved is the hardest thing for new players. At least it is/was for me.

Furelli · Post by **Furelli** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:09 pm

Guard is a confusing feature, yes. But since the assists on fouls in both offence and defence have been reintroduced a guard type ability for fouling would mean that both blocking and fouling function in a simular way in more circumstances.

Furelli.

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:28 pm

Furelli wrote:Guard is a confusing feature, yes. But since the assists on fouls in both offence and defence have been reintroduced a guard type ability for fouling would mean that both blocking and fouling function in a simular way in more circumstances.

Actually that's not true. You need to know the exact bonus for fouling, where you only need to know who's winning for blocks. Blocking can often be figured out with a +/- system where fouling would be a more complex operation. I dont need to know how much higher I am when blocking, just that I'm higher... where in fouling the exact number is required.

Furelli · Post by **Furelli** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 1:32 pm

Good point. That was something I hadn't considered.
However I still think that the Dirty Player should be (if it is going to change) +1AV and Guard for Fouls. Just my 2pennies worth.

Furelli

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 3:10 pm

Acerak wrote:3. Orc Blitzers and BOBs with Mighty Blow would become less powerful, but Orc Lineman with Pro would become more powerful.[Edited to correct something that was just flat-out wrong!]

Why is this relevant? Who fields orc linemen?! And the position players are supposed to be better than the line orcs. As it is it's already nigh impossible to get a BOB to MB

Acerak wrote:Now imagine your typical Orc team. The BOBs are taking Block and Guard, Block and MB, Block and Tackle. Those with MB become a little less powerful as a result of this change. The Blitzers are taking MB and Tackle, Tackle and Strip Ball, Pro and MB, with some Guard mixed in. Those with MB alone aren't causing casualties as well as they did before, but the Linemen with Block and Pro are developing into better hitters as well.[Edited to correct something that was just flat-out wrong!]

Good luck getting orc linemen to 16spp anytime fast. And remember there's ever usually at most one on the field at any given time, after the 4 blitzers, 4 black orcs, ogre, and (at least) one thrower. You put 2 throwers out there, suddenly no line orcs at all!

Acerak wrote:So yes, MB would go down a bit. And players who had nothing but MB would suffer a little bit. But the rest of their players would become better hitters, and even though Orcs are the most position-heavy race in all of Blood Bowl, I wager that your typical Orc team would see an increase in its damage capabilities rather than a decrease. [Edited to correct something that was just flat-out wrong!]

Why? Because the 1 orc lineman that actually plays has pro, that he occasionally uses for armor or injury?

We've nerfed MB enough already with our various re-writes. We've nerfed DP enough already with our various re-writes. We really are starting to look more and more like pansy elf-bowl every day. "Oooh don't take those Strength skills, someone might get HURT!!"