Yet another Diving Tackle question

[SixFootDwarf]

This is more of an interpretation question than an implimentation question, but...

If I use Diving Tackle on an AG5 player and he rolls a 3, does he go down? I had a game recently where this came up and I used the same interpretation as throwing...i.e. a 1 before OR after modification is always a failure.

Just wonderin' what you guys thought of it.

[GalakStarscraper]

I'd say no because a AG 5 players needs a 1+ to succeed on that Dodge ... there is no rule about a modified 1 being a failure, so I'd say a roll of 3 is a success against DT while a 2 would not be.

This is one of those few times that the BBRC could surprise and tell me I'm wrong as your modified 1 being a failure is not out in left feel, but my gut says its not a turnover. ..... or ... put another way, I know if this happened in the 2.2 Beta version of the PBeM tool, I programmed it to not be a turnover.

Galak

[Acerak]

Like all players, the AG5 player gets +1 for making a dodge. His target number is 2. A roll of 1 before modification always fails, of course. So long as he rolls a 2, he's fine.

Now add a Diving Tackler, who causes a -2 modifier to be added to the die roll. The net modifier is -1, but the target number is still 2. A roll of 3 with a -1 modifier is a 2; the player succeeds and keeps moving.

-Chet

[GalakStarscraper]

Hey ... got the tricky one right .... YEAH!!!!

Galak

[Vitalis]

This doesn't really answer the question - or am I unusually dense?

What if the dice rolled was a '2'?

The question - as I read it - concerns the 'A 1 before ore after modification fails'-rule.
Does a '1' AFTER modification fail?

[Furelli]

That particular roll only effects pass results, ie for fumbles. The basic results is just a natural '1' being an auto failure. A player with agility 5 would need a result of a 2 after all modification so would fail the roll, +1 for dodge, -2 for diving tackle = 1 after modification. However if the player had agility 6 they would need a 1 after all modification so on a roll of a 2 they would succeed.

Furelli.

[SixFootDwarf]

So that means that Diving Tackle is ineffective vs. an AG6 player? I can't say I agree with that. Why would the "before OR after modification" thing only affect the throwing aspect? hmmmm

But if it's the rule, it's the rule. Thanks guys

[Zy-Nox]

Its not ineffective against AG6 or am I so dense aswell.
A roll of 1 before or after mods is a failure.
So if he rolls a 2 (+1 for making dodge) =3 then you diving tackle him -2, leaves you with 1( fails right, as a 1 always fails?) If he rolled a 3 then he'd be fine,
But maths aint my strong point so I'll wait for someone else to do it right.

[Vesticle]

The part that says "a 1 before or after modification" only applies to throwing, because it determines when the ball is fumbled. All other rolls that fail on a 1 are simply a failure the same as if you simply rolled underneath your necessary success value. However, with throwing, a roll of a 1 is different than a simple failure. The rolling of a one is a fumble, sort of a 'critical failure' of sorts. As explained in the rulebook, the chances of fumbling the football happen a lot more often when you have a lot of hostile people in your face, than when you're standing all alone with all the time in the world. This is the reason that specifically in that case, a 1 after modification is considered.

Diving tackle is not ineffective against AG6 anymore than anything else is. It still gives the dodging player a -2, which will become significant if they try to dodge into a square that is part of several different opponent's tackle zones. By the same token, simply forcing the AG6 player to dodge into one of your player's tackle zones is ineffective by itself, but if combined with several players having a tackle zone on the square that player is trying to dodge into, it will factor into the play.

Correct me if I'm mistaken.

David

[Furelli]

You're completely correct David. And well written. Thanx for putting it accross clearly - I was starting to get confused as I typed up my explanation.

Furelli.

[Vitalis]

To sum it all up:

A '1' before modification allways fails.

When passing and only when passing a '1' after modification fails as well.
[/i]

[Zy-Nox]

So if an Ag 6 player gets a 1 after Mod, then No failure?
OMG WoW

[SixFootDwarf]

I agree, Zy. I can't with good conscience see a player roll what amounts to a 1 and still complete his action. I view it sort of like this: modifications to any roll merely add pips (or dots) or subtract pips from a dice after it's rolled. Does that seem logical? 6 pips - 2 pips = 4 pips. So in essense your roll was a 4.

Now I know this makes any dodge roll, no matter what the players AG, a 4+ after Diving Tackle is applied...which may sound a bit tough for dodgier players. But consider the alternative. Say an AG4 player in 2 tackle zones rolls a 3. THAT would equate into a turnover, because AFTER modification it's a 1, correct? That's is a (NON-throwing) 1 after modification equaling a failure, Furelli..

I know the main gyst of this debate is that for players AG5 and above some rolls would "technically" be 1+ rolls. But Blood Bowl (and just about EVERY other GW game) is based on the law that 1's always fail. Yeah yeah, I know there IS such thing as 1+ saves in WHFB...used for this very instance: modification purposes. But this isn't WHFB.

[Vesticle]

Personally, I always thought of modifiers modifying the final total, not the actual dice. Otherwise, the "6" that always succeeds, would only succeed if it was a 6 after modification.

The 1/6 rule, which is relatively standard (1 auto-failure moreso than 6-auto success) I think generally brings into play the "there is no absolute certainty" factor. With the auto-failure for a 1 though, it already leaves a 16.7% chance of failing anything, even for the most 'certain' of actions. Personally, I think that's a high enough % of failure. Most other games I've played often use a 5% chance of auto-failure (1 on a d20 or top/bottom 5 on a d100).

Someone else might chime in and say "if that agility 6 player has the dodge skill, it drops his chance of failure to only a 2.8% chance". Well, that's the same chance of failure for a Dwarf Longbeard blocking a Skaven Gutter Runner.

Additionally, how often to AG6 people occur, and at what cost/effort? If a High Elf Lineman has AG6 and dodge, and tries to run through your line, for the same cost, and number (and better probability)of star player rolls, you could be matching him with a Dwarf Longbeard with ST4, Pro, and Piling On. You'd then knock him down 84.4% of the time, and penetrate his armor 83.3% of the time that you knocked him down (70.3% of the time total), and only a 1.4% chance of falling down yourself.

Correct my math if it's wrong...

David

[Furelli]

All modifiers apply to the actual dice. So an AG4 player needs a 3+ after all modifications have been applied. AG6 is the only circumstance where a 1+ after all modification suceeds.

Furelli.