New Handicap Table ... right idea?

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Simplified Scaled Handicap Table

Good improvement from the current table
87
38%
Better but needs a lot more work
71
31%
Not the right idea
69
30%
 
Total votes: 227

Jugular
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Post by Jugular »

Petty Ploys? and the other two you came up with were the same.
Well, no. Desperate Measures might remain the same (because, as you'd know if you bothered to read my post attentively, I admitted that title was apt) but calling the second table Dirty Tricks is different to calling it Random Events and Dirty Tricks. And if handicaps are meant to be things your team/coaches/cheerleaders have done or acquired to increase their chances of winning, then Petty Ploys is a better and more appropriate title than Good Karma.
Not exactly seeing as Kharma is basically the First Law of Thermodynamics (every action has an equal and opposite reaction). Such things as training and being the type of people that eggheads would like to watch or exotic dancers would like to follow is perfectly fitting with the idea of Kharma.
Without getting into some philosophical arguments over what Kharma is does it really matter all that much how their named.
No, of course not. :wink: I've just heard a rumour that the BBRC are going to rename all the teams Human #1, #2, #3, etc. After all, it doesn't really matter if an Orc team is called Human Team #12, does it? :evil:
Please reread attentively the words "all that much". My personal view is that you can call them what you like it's the rules that are being discussed here not the finer details of aesthetic bliss and satisfactory fluff.
It's obvious they haved been pulled from the Special play cards.
You are obviously wrong here. The cards were called Random Events, Dirty Tricks, and Magic Items. So where is Magic Items? Where did Good Karma come from? Or Desperate Measures?
Desperate Measures was a special play card. The difference is between Petty Ploys and Good Kharma was it really worth all this argument just to get the label of one handicap table changed from something pretty fitting to something....pretty fitting.
Your argument sounds little petty tbh.
Maybe but at least I gave some thought to my argument, which you, judging by your inaccurate responses, did not.
......
As far as I'm aware in the LRB if you get four rolls on a table you get all four results you dont have to pick one.
Try reading your LRB. I quote from the table on page 43: "[TR difference]101+ [Rolls]4 + pick a fifth result of your choice." Can't get much clearer than that, can you?
Please reread attentively the words "As far as I'm aware". I obviously was not aware thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Under the proposed new table you would get at least 2 rolls (as it was changed to 40 points).
Try reading the post again (actually, just try reading something... anything!). I stated quite clearly that my league uses a 50 point Desperate Measures table. So I would get two rolls. Two random handicaps. Compared to four random handicaps and one picked on the old LRB table.
Read the poll it was not asking about your leagues handicap table but the one stated in Galak's first post. When taking an example you may want to consider the difference a change in prices might make to your experiences when trying to relate it to a different table.
If you can't get any benefit from 'Doom and Gloom' or 'I am the Greatest!' then I suggest you give up on any handicap system suiting your needs.
Doom & Gloom costs 50 points. For that I can make the opposing player lose between 1 and 3 TRRs, depending on how many they have. It's usually 1 or 2, as only one team in our league has more than 6 TRRs. Gee, how great is that. My lethal opponents, who possess a large number of highly skilled players (who thus do not need the use of TRRs), have to play me with 2 TRRs rather than 4. Gee, my life has been spared! :evil:

I am the Greatest! Wow, two randomly selected players don't like each other. So (to use an example that actually occurred in our league), if I'm playing an Orc team with 4 BOB Star Players, 4 Blitzer Star Players, and an Ogre (this was before the 2003 Rules Review), they might not be able to field one Goblin and an Orc lineman with no SPPs at the same time. Phew! Breathes deep (but decidely sarcastic) sigh of relief. :evil:

I can gain benefit from these handicaps, of course. But it doesn't happen very often because of the huge TR difference in the first case and the random nature of the handicap in the second case. The changes made to these handicaps in the proposed tables is an improvement to be sure but not much of one.
Again..Read the poll and read the table. Firstly its 40 points. 'I am the Greatest' is the two players with highest SPP not random. Doom & Gloom will remove 5 out of every 6 RR's and from your post I deduce that this would reduce most teams you're playing against to one reroll. At TR200 most teams will have difficulties with only 1 reroll especially in conjunction with their two biggest stars not playing on the pitch at once. With all this in mind do you really dislike the table all that much (you might want to read it first before replying)?

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GalakStarscraper
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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Talked over with some coaches ... Appearance Fee can easily be a null result if a team has cash on hand which should definitely not be the case with a Desperate Measure. It also overlaps very badly with I Am the Greatest!

What if Appearance Fee was replaced with:

ASSASSIN: Your team has hired an assassin to take out one of the other team’s top guns. Pick a player on the opposing team and make an Injury roll for him, counting any stunned results as KO and any casualty result as Badly Hurt. The opposing coach may not use his Apothecary or Regenerate trait on this player.

I think that would be better as if you could tailor your Assassin shot based on any other rolls you had received to avoid the overlap and its guaranteed to not be a null result and it has no permanent effect which is the other thing that bugged me about Appearance Fee as it permantently effected the opposing team cash?

thoughts?

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Jugular
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Post by Jugular »

Does 'I am the Greatest' affect the two highest SPP players if either has an MNG? This could cause a null result. Assassin is either a KO or BH why not 1-4 KO and 5-6 BH to make it a little more effective (it's even less dice too!!!;))?

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Jugular wrote:Does 'I am the Greatest' affect the two highest SPP players if either has an MNG?
No its the two highest SPP players for the game so an MNG wouldn't count.
Assassin is either a KO or BH why not 1-4 KO and 5-6 BH to make it a little more effective (it's even less dice too!!!;))?
The current rule could be restated as 1-5 KO, 6 BH. So you propose ... adding 1 to that. Not a bad suggestion. Gives it teeth but not badly so which is what the 40 result is aiming for. Okay.

Assassin ... pick player on opposing team ... 1-4 KO ... 5-6 BH but we'll add back in the ability to use Regen or the apoth which ties it up nicely.

Sound good.

Galak

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Post by DoubleSkulls »

GalakStarscraper wrote:ASSASSIN: Your team has hired an assassin to take out one of the other team’s top guns. Pick a player on the opposing team and make an Injury roll for him, counting any stunned results as KO and any casualty result as Badly Hurt. The opposing coach may not use his Apothecary or Regenerate trait on this player.
This still isn't as strong as I am the Greatest as it probably only removes a player for the first couple of drives. In fact I'd consider this a 20pt result.

Appearence fee is a bit of a non-result if your opponent can afford to pay - but combined with negative winnings & freebooting apoths how much money are high TR teams going to have lying around? Its one of those results that either hurts the high TR team outside of the game (because they pay) or helps inside (because they don't).

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

ianwilliams wrote:This still isn't as strong as I am the Greatest as it probably only removes a player for the first couple of drives. In fact I'd consider this a 20pt result.
So if I moved it to a 33% to take them out for the game. IE 1-4 KO, 5-6 BH is that enough or does it need to be a 50/50 split ... ie 1-3 KO, 4-6 BH to be worth the 40 point handicap?
Appearence fee is a bit of a non-result if your opponent can afford to pay
It also combines very poorly with I Am the Greatest since you have two effects that target the same player.

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Post by DoubleSkulls »

For 40 points I'd expect that I can pick a player and he misses the whole game. That's about comparable with all the other 40 points and a big enough improvement over the 20 pts to be worthwhile.

"Assassin" pick a player on the opposing team. An assassin has poisoned his drink and he's unable to play during the game.

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

ianwilliams wrote:For 40 points I'd expect that I can pick a player and he misses the whole game. That's about comparable with all the other 40 points and a big enough improvement over the 20 pts to be worthwhile.

"Assassin" pick a player on the opposing team. An assassin has poisoned his drink and he's unable to play during the game.
Point taken.

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Post by Dangerous Dave »

Please to see that my comments on page 1 of this thread are agreed with (the Appearance Fee roll). :o

Now all you have to do is improve the ST 4 Frenzy player so that it is a free Big Guy and the table is looking good! :wink:

Finally, on reviewing the Table again, I'm a little concerned that Doom and Gloom may be too strong. If I read it correctly, you have to roll a 6 to keep each reroll. Hence if a team has 6 rerolls, they are likely to keep only 1 (on average). Therefore it is probable that the high TR team will have either 1 or 0 rerolls for the whole game - sure this is supposed to be a serious handicap, but it may be too much - can we make it 5 or 6 on a d6 or 7 and 8 on a d8 or something else. [just as a point of comparison, 4 rerolls probably equates to at least the best player on the team (in terms of TR) - however, I believe the loss of most rerolls is more painful than 1 player].



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Post by Furelli »

Doctor in the House? seems very powerful, and has effects that affect the next game. ie. All those Serious Injuries that have been inflicted are now Badly Hurts and thus don't miss next game.

Doom and Gloom may wish to be changed to 'lose half their rerolls, round down.'

Furelli.

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Post by BadMrMojo »

Furelli wrote:Doctor in the House? seems very powerful, and has effects that affect the next game. ie. All those Serious Injuries that have been inflicted are now Badly Hurts and thus don't miss next game.
...
Well, you could say that anything has an effect on the next game... "If he hadn't had that palmed coin, he couldn't have set up that 2-1 stalling grind and I would have gotten some SPPs for another touchdown!" Pedantic, yes. But you get the point, I trust?

I would like to see something added to Doctor in the House indicating that SPPs are earned based upon the unmodified CAS results, however. No need to open that can of worms when you can clarify it now.

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Furelli wrote:Doctor in the House? seems very powerful, and has effects that affect the next game. ie. All those Serious Injuries that have been inflicted are now Badly Hurts and thus don't miss next game.
I'll disagree with you on this note. If you use that logic ... Magic Sponge, Kid's Gloves, and Iron Man all do the same thing. Changing an injury roll is not changing the team.
Doom and Gloom may wish to be changed to 'lose half their rerolls, round down.'

Furelli.
Since I've coached Flings for 2+ years now. I'd like to tell you that a good team without its rerolls or with only one can still hand your head to you with their good players. Doom and Gloom is basically just the other team letting loose a Master Chef type effect (without getting the rolls themself). Rerolls are nice, but I don't think this result is too powerful at all for a 40 point effect just based on seeing this type of rule in action for quite a while already in the game.

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Dangerous Dave wrote:Now all you have to do is improve the ST 4 Frenzy player so that it is a free Big Guy and the table is looking good! :wink:
Both my MBBL games had my opponent get the ST 4 Frenzy guy Dave and trust me ... he IS a 40 point handicap. ST 4 Frenzy makes me change my defense in both those game. He tied up my players in both games. Is he an Ogre ... granted no ... but to be honest ... I'd rather have the ST 4 Frenzy player than an Ogre ... reliability is a good thing to have in a handicap.

In one game he finally got killed by a Throw Rock in turn 4 of the 2nd half (that could have been one of his players). But that was after taking a block a turn for 9 turns from one of my treeman without me being able to take him out or even Stun him (as I couldn't get 3 dice hits on him like my other Treeman was getting with the rest of his ST 3 players).

and BMJ ... I'll add that clarification ... good point. I'll also clarify Iron Man and Kid's Gloves along the same note.

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Post by Jugular »

I think you may be getting too hung up on your own experience of this ST4 Frenzy player Galak. I'd not be surprised if once you've playtested it for a while these initial unlucky experiences pale in comparison especially if you are still playing Halflings! :) You've heard my suggestions on this so i wont bother repeating them. But don't say I didn't warn you if you end up changing it later ;)

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Post by Sixpack595 »

I think Doc in the house is a bit much. I would drop the BH to KO. It keeps the big hurts from sticking, but won't make it much less.

Assassin is a bit much too, I'd prefer it to be random, or 1-4 = KO, 5-6= BH.

Nothing big, but I think it would be a bit better.

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