Hard TR Caps vs Negative Winnings+Freebooted Apoths

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:26 pm

um your wrong there ith

stuff like this was being discussed way before then and i have seen it as a problem for ages

it was even worse in 3rd edition hence the changes in the winnings table and stuff like that in the first LRB

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:26 pm

well, i voted for some mix.

i would like to have some feedback about the TR handicap tables that Andy Hall is using in his league.
i founded quite nice and going to low Tr to High Tr.
Also, may be change a little the money we can gain with a High Tr
cos it is very very hard.

But we could also imagine some end season stuff, like a roll to see if you loose some Rerrols...
I dont like caps either. If two teams have a very big difference of Tr, this is more the duty of the league commish to fix those probable problem IMHO

And i really like a real Tr calcul before a game : not counting the players that miss it (but may be counting the niggling..dont know for them).

Ithilkir · Post by **Ithilkir** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:47 pm

Ok, maybe not four years (can't remember when the first LRB came out), but I still don't remember any of this coming up and I don't remember anyone wanting changes once aging and the reduced winnings were put in.

Seriously, find me some discussions about it from two/three years ago, or even a year ago. It seems to be working fine as it is just now, you want to take a team to 300+? You can, the team might be filled with nigglers but you can still do it and it'd be a challenge to win giving up so much handicap.

Out of pure laziness on my behalf, can someone basically tell me what the problem with the current system is?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:01 pm

i took my skaven to 290 with only 1 niggle on the team from aging iirc

if i had the time and the dedication to do it, i believe i could build a team up much higher than 300 under the current rules without having the team full of niggles or whatever

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:00 pm

When the MBBL2 starts up soon ... we'll get our first look at the package. That league has three teams over TR 250 at this point so it will be interesting to watch what happens.

Galak

Ithilkir · Post by **Ithilkir** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

Grumbledook wrote:i took my skaven to 290 with only 1 niggle on the team from aging iirc

if i had the time and the dedication to do it, i believe i could build a team up much higher than 300 under the current rules without having the team full of niggles or whatever

And what's the problem with that? Surely if you want to put the time and dedication into building the perfect team then you should have the chance of being able to. No guarantee you'll manage it, or your league will last that long. That one in a thousand team will be exactly that. And if it dominates your league when you manage it, then be a good sport and retire them as undisputed champions and start again.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:42 pm

whats wrong with that is that it makes a mockery of the fact the reavers are legendary and also when teams get that good the game is boring and you will only lose games by rolling double 1s

if you don't roll double ones and your a good enough coach to not make mistakes then you will win every single game purely because your team has so many players with skills on them

that then causes the problem that its no fun for anyone to play against you, it gets boring for you cause there is no challenge in playing your team

take a look at my skaven right now at tr 249 i have quite a few players with sod all skills yet my team is still very good and hard to beat

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... eam_id=236

Ithilkir · Post by **Ithilkir** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:50 pm

A lot can be attributed to being a good coach as well

But the team has taken some attrition, and I'm sure you'll get a nasty game losing a few players. It's hardly 'Reaver standard'. But you said yourself, it gets boring, so retire a few players to drop the TR and make some new players up. No-one forces you to play with what you have.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:24 am

you seem to have missed my point

the team in its current state isn't boring because they aren't a team full of super players and yer they have taken some beats

though most of it i can ignore, -av on throwers isn't that big a deal, same goes with the kicker they are players you normally try to keep out of harms way

just a shame its on the foul app player a few games ago i would have said the team was around reaver status until i played a nasty fouling team where my dauntless runner got niggled from a foul and he killed my ag5 move 10 runner as well

that dropped my tr nicely seeing as he had 127 spp

thee level the team are at now is where it should be more of a challenge to keep them going, now personally it all works if you do self inpose player turnover on your own teams which i do anyway

the problem comes on those coaches who don't, or those who got lucky with no aging etc who can then build up to silly team ratings, the rules don't cope with that well at all

with freebooted apoths fouling again will come that bit more dangerous along with negative winnings as its the star players that will be targets still and player cycling will occur more with these rules than under the current rules and that after all is the aim whilst keeping tr at a reasonable level

vtdoogie · Post by **vtdoogie** » Thu Jan 01, 2004 8:46 pm

> 1) TR Cap.
Against

> 2) TBB Package:
> Step 1: Remove Aging from the game.

Suprisingly to my pain, I have found aging to actually add to the game. Watching a 1-turn GR with VLL and a MA inc getting a MA decrease and being forced to take sprint was a very interesting twist of fate. Granted some less drastic negatives to lower the pain factor could be interesting to see:
"Knicked" mark as K in INJ box. player only comes out of KO box on 6 not 4-6.
"Tight Muscles" mark as T in INJ box. roll with niggles. on 1(or 1-3) player misses first drive due to extra time needed to warm up.

> Step 2: Move to a better handicap table like the CHUBB table for example: http://www.chubbleague.com/chubb/handicap.html

A more balanced handicaped table, like the one listed is definitely needed.

> Step 3: Rule Change: In addition to the preGame rolls for Niggling injuries if a player is STILL in Reserves or KO (ie is a casualty or already missing the game/niggled out) at the beginning of the 2nd half or overtime, he must successfully roll for his Niggling Injuries again or miss the remainder of the game.

Might be a good change, though if coupled with aging, as it is, this is too much.

Step 4: Add the Simplified Coach's Choice Negative Winnings rule:
Note: If your cash roll at the end of a game is negative, this amount is deducted from your treasury. This may cause your treasury to go negative. If it does, the negative amount is recorded to your roster as a team debt (ie negative cash). Negative treasuries will be treated as if they are positive treasuries for Team Rating points. You cannot purchase anything for your team if your treasury is negative.

This is definitely a good idea, though adding possible ways to trim to satisfy the debt is probably needed. This is definitely the case in fixed schedule leagues.

Step 5: Change the Apothecary from being purchased for 50k to having to be freebooted for any game for 10k. (Much like the wizard was changed from being purchased for a team to being only freebooted in the LRB 1.0)[/quote]

No. don't like it.

VT Doogie

begbie · Post by **begbie** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:07 am

My vote is for the new TBB package

I'm quite happy to take on high TR teams for the sake of a match. If nothing else you get some good bragging rights for a win. So i don't agree with setting a TR cap or any such.

Handicaps (and a useful handicap table) can not only help even some odds but they're fun and make the game more interesting.

Negative winnings and freebooted apothecaries seem to be a good step towards team balance.

At the end of the day? Get rid of ageing, please. Getting new skills was meant to be fun, not a time to see how well you could cripple your own players

Howabout this for an extra option - Each Star Player Roll that a player has made increases his worth to the team. Add 20k (or something) to that players total cost. You, as the coach, do not need to fork out any cash at this point but you do need to increase your TR by 2.
Why? You'll get higher TR teams with no other practical difference, a team with 5 skill rolls will be 10 TR up on where they would be otherwise. This will lead to extra handicaps for underdogs which, at the very least, are fun.
Problem - When handicaps or some such require a coach to fork out what his player is worth. This could be costly...

begbie · Post by **begbie** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:22 am

Oh, and i checked out Gumbledooks current skaven team in fumbbl. Sure, only a couple of nigglings but those reduced armour values have got to hurt.

Or at least they should hurt. Skaven, like elves, can only run away for so long...

Oni · Post by **Oni** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:26 pm

[quote="Grumbledook"]whats wrong with that is that it makes a mockery of the fact the reavers are legendary and also when teams get that good the game is boring and you will only lose games by rolling double 1s

if you don't roll double ones and your a good enough coach to not make mistakes then you will win every single game purely because your team has so many players with skills on them

The Reavers are a 2nd Edition team. Move past that and accept that LRB is differant with new teams coming to the forefront. And remember the Chaos All-Stars were tr 350ish.

High TR teams are not boring. Coaches can use them and plan on succeding at an action. That some coaches win all the time may actually reflect on coaching skill not team skills.

Oni

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 4:13 pm

All other points ignored for the moment:
I play in a high TR league.
And the game certainly does not get boring as long as everybody is reasonably in contact TR wize.
Heck, the handicap table can close a lot of the gaps too.
That high-TR games are boring just isn't true.

If 2 TR300 teams are facing eachother, and nobody rolls a double one, they still won't be guaranteed to win.
Martin

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:32 pm

oni thats the level that i think teams should be hitting, i've always said that and i still stand by it

Talk Fantasy Football

Hard TR Caps vs Negative Winnings+Freebooted Apoths

To encourage long term league balance which would you rather see tested?

Re: Hard TR Caps vs Negative Winnings+Freebooted Apoths