New Handicap Table ... right idea?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 12:44 am

Just wanted to mention this ... very excited am I ...

Ronald just sent me the programming changes to make the Scaled Handicap table work in the PBeM program ... WOOT!!!

I'm really looking forward to seeing this in action.

Galak

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:03 am

Hi Galak and all,
I like the general idea of more balanced/consistent results.
Personally - I don't like the 50 point range.

IMO, it feels so "lame" (for lack of a better word) to lose a game to a single powerful result. To me, that is very different from losing to 5 decent tricks. With one big result you'll get a more distinct feeling that you lost "to the table".
I'd prefer a table with, say, 12 10-point results.

Martin

pfooti · Post by **pfooti** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:58 pm

I like the new handicap table. It is lovely.

In defense of the old palmed coin: if you play for 16 turns and your opponent plays for 16 turns, and you end up tied at the end of regulation play, you are very evenly matched. There is no reason to make palmed coin count for the overtime toss as well.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:09 pm

if you lower your tr then they won't be able to pick one of the more powerful ones

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:53 pm

Grumbledook said:
>if you lower your tr then they won't be able to pick one of the more powerful ones

Yeah well. You can only lower it so far.
If you're up against a newbie team, for whatever reason, then what can you do when you're at 150?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:44 pm

lower it by one and then there won't be a difference of 50 and thus can't roll on the difference of 50 table

Sixpack595 · Post by **Sixpack595** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:47 pm

My only concern is real world playtesting. I'm interested to see how much it will change the win/loss % for the different TRs. What are Teams winning right now? What will they win with this? Real leagues, not Java or Email (unless they impliment all the rules, and only use official/trial teams...within reason).

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:39 pm

Sixpack595 wrote:My only concern is real world playtesting. I'm interested to see how much it will change the win/loss % for the different TRs. What are Teams winning right now? What will they win with this? Real leagues, not Java or Email (unless they impliment all the rules, and only use official/trial teams...within reason).

MBBL which is a real league as you requested will start using the table at the beginning of February.

Galak

WhatzaMadderYew · Post by **WhatzaMadderYew** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:58 am

I think this a big step in the right direction. I like the idea of being able to “spend” the point difference on different table. One thing I liked about the old card system was that it could provide many different results (around 100). With that in mind, I would like to see some more results included in the handicap table.

From each point tier (10, 20, and 40) why not have 3 tables to pick from? In other words, you could spend 10 points for one roll on the 10 point “Good Karma” table or the 10 point “Dirty Tricks” or the 10 point “Random Event” table. Each table could have 8 items. That would give 62 different results.

I agree with Galak’s earlier posting that it is important to limit “deadweight” choices from the list, but I think the Blood Bowl community could come up with that many workable results. Also, depending on the teams being placed on the pitch and the coaches playing style, one coach’s deadweight maybe another’s saving grace.

Again, I like the idea of reworking the table. This seems like a great way to do it. I would just like to see as many results as playable included.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:31 pm

16 votes for not the right idea ... and I don't think I've heard one person say why that voted in that direction.

Guys ... seriously I'm open to negative critism ... but I really do actually need to hear it to understand what it even is.

Galak

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:29 pm

i didnt vote but this is something i want to see in the futur. a scaled table.
As I said in another post. Do you have any feedback about the Triple skull league tables?

[France Bloodbowl] ZeBoss · Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:03 pm

The handicap table has no interest.
Some events are too powerful others are too weak. On FBB we never use it. We have been using this rule for a while :
For each handicap roll you should have had, remove a reroll to your opponent total. With this subtility : if the team ranking difference is more than 50 then your opponent can only use one reroll.

After lots of games, we think this rule is not enough strict. So we will probably move to remove 1 reroll for each 10 points of TR difference. If Diff TR is superior to 50 your opponent has only one reroll.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:21 pm

16 votes for not the right idea ... and I don't think I've heard one person say why that voted in that direction.

Guys ... seriously I'm open to negative critism ... but I really do actually need to hear it to understand what it even is.

Then let me be the first to step up to the plate, as the yanks say. I'm a bit nervous, as this is only my third post on TBB! But I've been a BB player for many years, got out of the hobby about five or six years back, moved to the States and started up again after visiting the local hobby store (cue plug for Cerebral Hobbies in CH/NC!). But I digress (and besides I think that's enough personal history, don't you?).

There are two main reasons why I think this new handicap table(s) is (are) a bad idea.

Firstly, I don't really believe in the handicap system at all. If your 100 Team Rating team decides (or has to) take on a 200 Team Rating team then you should expect the worst. Time to take your lumps, nurse. Either don't play, concede the game, or play your best and hope for the best. YOu don't catch Rushton & Diamonds resorting to cheats, bribes, and dirty tricks if they ever have to play Manchester United. I know this is in the spirit of BB but I still think it should be excluded.

Secondly, the tables are still random and if the handicap table is truly necessary then I think it should be a matter of choice. My personal preference would be to have one large table with all the options, each with a point cost. The underdog then gets to pick whatever he wants. I think I'm alone in thinking that however 'cos no one else has mentioned it. Then again, as you yourself said Galak, no one has said why they don't like your basic premise.

Several other reasons but ones that are not so important include: there are simply not enough options; I'd like to see the Special Play Cards from DZ brought back (unbalancing they might have been but a lot of fun); and finally I thought some of the assigned point costs were a little off-kilter.

How's that for an honest answer, Galak? (Oh, and congrats on making it to the BBRC, by the way.)

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:35 pm

Don't you just hate it when you forget what you something meant to say? Sorry for the second post, everyone. Anyway, I did mean to mention that if there had been a fourth choice in the poll, such as 'Better than the old table but not right' then I would have voted for that. I do think the new table you've devised is better than the old one but I just don't think it's the right idea, so I voted for the latter. Just wanted to make that clear.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:06 pm

raven i am also with you in thinking there should just be options you should be able to pick

i mentioned this a number of times a few months ago but it never got taken up in full discussion

in my opinion the handicap table should allow the lower teams to get through the game or maybe have an outside chance of winning but not compete on the same level

i thought the whole problem people were saying with low teams playing high teams were the lower team often got mangled and couldn't play any more after that

it would simply be solved by letting them pick an option that allowed the lower rated team to take nothing worse than a badly hurt in the game but not allowing use of the apoth or such things like that

then just set the levels at which they are allowed to pick such things

maybe in closer ranges only allow 1 injury worse than a badly hurt

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