Hard TR Caps vs Negative Winnings+Freebooted Apoths

[ScottyBoneman]

The other issue I've seen posted is that Regeneration gets better under this plan.

Now this is one I have to chuckle at because I don't know how many threads I've seen bemoaning 4+ Regeneration (asking that it be dropped to 3+) or that Ghouls and Werewolves should have apothecaries.

I'm inclinced to believe that this effect won't be particularly noticed. Regeneration is still a poor man's apothecary. If the Undead team starts to pull slighly ahead, the Tiered handicap system gives extra handicaps ever 10 points, so its built in to combat this.

This is one of the points that would really need playtested, but looking over the FUMBBL data ... Undead, Khemri, and Necro teams are not really posting high TRs. Only two have broken the 300 TR mark with 343 and 311 out of the 34 teams that have broken TR 300 there. So for these teams they'd still be dealing with a better handicap table and fiercer niggle penalties (these 2 TR 300+ Undead teams have 13!!! Niggles between the two of them) ... so my gut says the data shows that the Regen teams would struggle just as much as the other teams still to climb up the ladder.

Data is a wonderful thing if you take the time to shift through it. But my job is data shifting so I don't mind.

Galak

My job (at least for the last month) is baby-sitting a server that hasn't broken. Thus plenty of time for analysis.

For the Undead thing, I was thinking about that last night. As mentioned, not having to freeboot the Apoth and relying on Regen is slightly less of a draq then the other teams but as mentioned there are other parts to this package that combat this. Also to be noted, is that at early development Undead are very slightly weakened by other's addition. Teams that have an Apoth their first game for 10K and more money overall until their 5th means they can advance slightly faster- and more reliably. I also think this rule benefits teams like Elves and Chaos and their more expensive players for the same reason but doubt the effect is significant enough to casue a balance issue.

Still not 100% on the neg cash = TR thing. The ability to horde cash in advance could actually makes things worse on a coach as the impact of the rule is delayed until far more severe. I love the idea of this mechnic but would like to avoid the possiblity of an total spiral if it was possible. Frankly my beloved Undead team points toward this being necessary but in a perfect world I would like to see numbers on what happens without the TR compoent.

[Grumbledook]

well there has never been a reason to horde money if you don't need it, there have always been handicaps so there wasn't a reason to need to do that

as for the undead losing out early because of the freebooted apoths its not so much of a problem as i consider undead to be one of the strongest starting teams (backed up by tournament results here) and they do gain in the long run from having regen

i can understand the concern about spiralling debt cause i thought like that initially but a closer look reveals its going to be extremely hard with a combination of no deaths or injuries on pitch coupled with really low winnings and gate rolls whilst also gaining spp and losing the match

anyone who can sustain that sort of criteria on a team i will take my hat off too them ;]

again its something that playtesting would prove or disprove which is why i think this really should be tested as i think there is great merit in there

[Darkson]

Still not 100% on the neg cash = TR thing. The ability to horde cash in advance could actually makes things worse on a coach as the impact of the rule is delayed until far more severe. I love the idea of this mechnic but would like to avoid the possiblity of an total spiral if it was possible. Frankly my beloved Undead team points toward this being necessary but in a perfect world I would like to see numbers on what happens without the TR compoent.

I don't see this as a problem of the system, but a problem of coaching. If you kno that hording money is going to start to affect you, why horde it?

The more I read, the more see the problems being brought up about coaches facing thi and facing that are all going to be self-inflicted, in which case I'd say thats tough.

[Teflonpanna]

I only play Blood Bowl on FUMBBL nowadays. The rules differ somewhat from the boardgame, as you know, and I don't have any problem with this. In fact, I think it would be good if new and more entertaining rules not meant to be used in the regular boardgame were invented. For example: better aging rules connected to games played instead of SPPs gained. One roll for every player after each game, with a very small chance of aging effects, perhaps.
A few of you have said that aging based on games played is wrong because it penalizes players that develop slowly. Yes, they would be worse off than in the current system, but the current system penalizes players that develop fast. They can be of use for their teams in fewer matches than the ones that develop more slowly. I don't think this is fair. Why should a BOB be able to play many more matches than a wardancer before showing aging effects?
There are many ways to tweak the aging system. I don't think the idea should be discarded just because one or two versions of it had some flaws. The idea of aging appeals to me. Players shouldn't be able to continue playing forever. But the effect should be random. Some players last longer than others.
(And I'm not saying that negative winnings etc is a bad idea. Just defending the aging idea.)

[ScottyBoneman]

Still not 100% on the neg cash = TR thing. The ability to horde cash in advance could actually makes things worse on a coach as the impact of the rule is delayed until far more severe. I love the idea of this mechnic but would like to avoid the possiblity of an total spiral if it was possible. Frankly my beloved Undead team points toward this being necessary but in a perfect world I would like to see numbers on what happens without the TR compoent.

I don't see this as a problem of the system, but a problem of coaching. If you kno that hording money is going to start to affect you, why horde it?

The more I read, the more see the problems being brought up about coaches facing thi and facing that are all going to be self-inflicted, in which case I'd say thats tough.

Don't get me wrong. I am asking Galak these questions because I usually get a damn good answer. I am definitely behind this package. Just want to ask all the questions that could/should be asked look for any unexpected results and help gauge their significance- like Grumble states the Undead do start well, so when I identify this possible factor I don't think it is a problem even as a habitual Undead coach.

[GalakStarscraper]

hey galak, are you going to be play testing these rules in an online league? if so, do you have room for one more coach?
... i really want to see this playtested and would prefer to have personal experience with it.

MBBL season 4 should start in late January and its an LRB rules league. The only extra rules we have playtest rules that have received at least 2 BBRC members approvals to see in a test environment:

So the Season 4 rules look like this right now for the MBBL:
LRB 3.0 + testing of the following:
1) On Pitch Take Root
2) Vampire team
3) Ogre team
4) The 5 step package described in this thread
5) D6 roll in pregame for Goblin teams to get a free secret weapon freebooter (ie normal goblin with the weapon) for the game. (1=nothing, 2=B&C, 3=PS, 4=Bomb, 5=Chainsaw, 6=choice)

So there's the rules for our Season 4. The MBBL is a PBeM league so you'll need to try out the PBeM program to join, but starting with Season 4 the league is changing from a closed league to be open entry (ie anyone can join at any time).

Galak

[Grumbledook]

we need people to ask the questions otherwise we might miss any flaws in the system

if they don't get asked we won't get to think about how the system deals with it and get a chance to explain how it does deal with it assuming it can and so far it seems as though it does ;]

[GalakStarscraper]

Don't get me wrong. I am asking Galak these questions because I usually get a damn good answer.

I'll try to give another then .....

If you are hording cash ... let's get an example:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... am_id=3771

just as a side note ... I think I'd have a lot of fun coaching that team for a couple game ...

Okay ... so this roster is at TR 248, has an FF of 15, and a horde of gold for 210,000. He's in pretty good shape ... the stronger niggle rules might make him think a little more about keeping his 3 Niggled players (anyone who think Niggles are currently are not a serious enough injury effect just needs to stroll through the FUMBBL data for a while), but that's an aside.

This team is probably getting pretty close to having negative winnings rolls in its future. The point here is that these rolls are going to be -10k, -20k, maybe even -30k rolls. These will have the nice effect of lowering his TR and starting to eat into these reserves. The bottom line though is this ... he's going to see the mack truck coming at him for a lllllloooonnnggg time before he get's hit (probably 7 to 10 or more games at least). As his cash reserves get eaten away, these are the truck blaring on the horn to get the h*ll out of the way. IF you haven't trimmed a team like this by the time you run out of cash .... all I can say is this ... you deserve to get hit by the truck and your body scraped like goo off the pavement.

Galak

[ScottyBoneman]

Don't get me wrong. I am asking Galak these questions because I usually get a damn good answer.

I'll try to give another then .....

If you are hording cash ... let's get an example:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... am_id=3771

just as a side note ... I think I'd have a lot of fun coaching that team for a couple game ...

Okay ... so this roster is at TR 248, has an FF of 15, and a horde of gold for 210,000. He's in pretty good shape ... the stronger niggle rules might make him think a little more about keeping his 3 Niggled players (anyone who think Niggles are currently are not a serious enough injury effect just needs to stroll through the FUMBBL data for a while), but that's an aside.

This team is probably getting pretty close to having negative winnings rolls in its future. The point here is that these rolls are going to be -10k, -20k, maybe even -30k rolls. These will have the nice effect of lowering his TR and starting to eat into these reserves. The bottom line though is this ... he's going to see the mack truck coming at him for a lllllloooonnnggg time before he get's hit (probably 7 to 10 or more games at least). As his cash reserves get eaten away, these are the truck blaring on the horn to get the h*ll out of the way. IF you haven't trimmed a team like this by the time you run out of cash .... all I can say is this ... you deserve to get hit by the truck and your body scraped like goo off the pavement.

Galak

Got that. But I am just thinking of about 70% of the FtF coaches I have ever played with who don't go to TBB or the like and very well may not know what the truck is never having seen one. Many will get out of the way out of sheer understanding of what could happen others will get crushed.

If the mechanic is needed, then this is just nature's way- fair enough. If that part of the drag is not needed we might want to go off our highbeams.

[Grumbledook]

i dunno surely it can't be that hard to see that you are losing money every match becuase your tr is higher than the amount of fans you can attract to a match?

[GalakStarscraper]

The biggest thing all this IS driving home though is one good thing ... I really think I need to extend the winning table 1 to 3 columns to the right. The fact is with the current table that if I can get an FF of 29 total between the two teams for a match than the current modifiers won't catch me.

Because my average gate will be over 101,000 which means an average modifer of -3. Since the average gold roll is 3.5 ... this mean you'll be able to dodge the bullet so to speak.

I think two more column ie go to 351+ as the last column would take care of this .... combined TR of 40 would be an average gate of 140,000 ... if two more columns were added this would make the average modifier for that gate -4 which would mean debt.

Galak

[ScottyBoneman]

i dunno surely it can't be that hard to see that you are losing money every match becuase your tr is higher than the amount of fans you can attract to a match?

Call me soft on the simpletons, but if there is any scenerio that would create the nearly unstoppable destruction of a team I would hope that it is:

1)Wildly unlikely Proven
2)Very avoidable Proven
3)Needed Would like to see tested/proven

[Father Tim]

I didn't vote because there is no applicable option for what I want:

NO TR LIMITING EFFECTS!

No Ageing
No Negative winnings
No -1 per 10 FF
No FF always down on a 1/up on a 6
No TR cap
Etc.

I *WANT* to see teams with 16 superstars, 9 rerolls and ACs/Cheerleaders out the wazoo. I want to play them, and I want to play against them.


In my almost two decades of playing Blood Bowl, I have coached a dozen teams to more than 100 games each, as have most of my friends. In all that time, the only 'balancing factor' for superteams we have ever needed is the freedom to play who we wish, when we wish. If you follow a challenge league format, nothing else is needed. I wouldn't expect my local high school team to be able to win against Manchester United (or the NY Yankees), and I don't see the point of distorting the rules so it can.

I will happily play any team, of any TR, against any other team, of any TR, at any time. Maybe that makes me special, but all you need to do to make the coaches of weak or rookie teams happy is not FORCE them to play the uberteams. Those who enjoy that sort of match will still do it, and those who don't, won't.

This constant tinkering of the rules to punish success (er, 'to scale down the high-end teams') evokes the same sort of rage in me that many fans felt when US television networks decided World Cup football (soccer) wasn't exciting enough, and "couldn't you make the goal area bigger and maybe get rid of that guy who can use his hands?"

Damnit, I want to play BLOOD Bowl, not Simulated Economics of a Sporting Franchise 101. When the majority of coaches in my local league decided that 3rd Ed. Dirty Player was too powerful, we didn't house rule it out of existence, we went out KILLED the players on opposing teams who had it. Thereafter we developed a gentleman's agreement of 'I won't use my DP unless you use yours first' which suited all of our coaches just fine. Mostly we played skill-based blood bowl to win, but we were all free to go on ocasional foul-fests and orgies of destruction.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I still believe it's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game... of course, most days I play to win.

Father Tim

[Grumbledook]

yes but when you start getting teams much above 300 the two teams are so skilled up that assuming you have 2 coaches who are experienced enough to play to the best to the teams ability its the coach who rolls double 1 that will lose

so why not save your self 2 hours and just roll dice until one of you gets double 1, its just the same but you save loads of money cause you won't have to buy any minis let alone bother painting them

and what about when your teams come up againt the legendary reikland reavers and beat them easy peasy cause your whole team has at least 5 skills, so much for legendary

[lightingbug]

Here Here Tim

All this started when they decided to make BB kinder and gentler because rookies didn't like playing the big boys. Granted GW is here to make money so more players = more $$$. but even expansion teams in the real NFL have a hard time playing for years. The Texans or even better The BUcs what was it 20 years before they made the big game.

I loved 3rd edition (granted only had one team and my league imploded before we hit 20 games, so I never saw any of the uberteams) , and haven't liked many of the rules changes from "4th Edition" on. except maybe the reworking of the rosters but since most everyone is playing RB now, at least in PBeM leagues it is what we play to play.