Hard TR Caps vs Negative Winnings+Freebooted Apoths

[Grumbledook]

I am going to have to disagree that these aren't good for long term leagues and team development.

Once a team gets itself up to a high level, the challenge then should be to stay there and bring up young fresh talent as players get on in their career and have to retire. No man plays forever, jerry rice will retire at some point ;] Teams also shouldn't keep going up and up forever.

The more skills you get in the teams the more it boils down to a point where games are won and lost on the coach who rolls double 1 the most. Thats not what i call a game. Teams at tr 250 are really good teams, like has been said the reavers are 310, when you get there thats the legend status. Teams also don't stay at the top forever, its tough at the top, a cliche but true. You are always going to have teams snapping at your heals fouling your stars. It takes a lot of money to run a very good team irl.

Running a tr250 for a long time should be a challenge, its also at a level where other teams can come and catch up which is also important in a league. The negative winnings should act as a method to spread the money in the league. The lower teams with lower ff will gain more money from playing the bigger clubs, while the bigger clubs will have to keep an eye on the purse strings as they play the teams with a smaller following.

These rules should allow you to play around tr250 and stay there game after game (with slight fluctuation), the higher you go above this the tougher it gets to stay there. If you drop below this it gets a bit easier and you can recover. Games should be more of a challenge the longer you play them or they get boring. If you bought a computer game that got easier every level you wouldn't be too happy.

As for peaking I have always been against it. The game already has its own inbuilt peaking with teh spp. I have seen many a player who never seems to gain spp as though they have already peaked. Its in built into the nature of the game no need to enforce it on anyone.

As for the nature of high ff teams not playing low ff teams in a challenge league. I only really think this will happen on a very large scale like FUMBBL, but then there are enough opponents around to be able to play against teams you would like. Besides you will soon make a name for yourself if you do start game dodging.

This in itself does introduce a kinda self inflicted divisional tier system with the larger teams playing the larger teams and leaving the lower ones to fight it out to catch up, but still leaves it open for the smaller teams to try and giant kill the better ones.

Besides those teams will still be affected by the negative winnings its not like you will get massive crowds every game. You can have poor gate rolls and the gates under the current rules aren't massive. I will see if I can get hold of some hard data on this.

[Janzki]

Voted for the TBB package. Really like to see if it works. Keep posting Galak

-Janzki

[farung]

my 2 cents : http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... eam_id=208

I want a team too look like that, thats the whole point of the game, oh and one more thing; too much balancing is generally not a good thing, It just keeps us from fighting harder to win.

[martynq]

my 2 cents : http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... eam_id=208

I want a team too look like that, thats the whole point of the game, oh and one more thing; too much balancing is generally not a good thing, It just keeps us from fighting harder to win.

I'd prefer far less niggles, but I'm terribly impressed with that win ratio... 80% is very very good, IMO.

Martyn

[Grumbledook]

i assure you if you talk to evo about that team he will tell you if handicaps were in play on fumbbl he would have sorted that team out ages ago instead of hoarding money and keeping loads of niggled players

as already stated a lot of people ignore the niggles

it also makes a mockery of the reikland reavers tr 310 to have teams like that and i disagree thats the whole point of the game

if you look at the huge tr differences he has played against without any handicaps in place you will see his win ratio isn't at all impressive, specially as i beat him ;]

[Jugular]

OK im still here I've kept reading cause I think there are some great ideas being discussed and if this is where BB is going I want to have my say. I'd still really like people to address my idea on reimbursing the reitrement of players (as mentioned by one poster the cash is just as easily related to recouping salary cost). I also believe that aging should be left in with some tweaks as mentioned by some previous posters. I believe that if nigglers were changed to apply at each half as well they would be made strong enough that by reducing the effect of aging (i.e. no aging on first skill and -1 to all subsequent thresholds) it would still provide a supa playa reducer which the current TBB package doesn't address (super orc players for example are let off by the TBB Package). I feel that aging should be left in partly in answer to the fact that "not every player can reach the same level" and therefore add an inherent peaking.
I'm not holding out for many more No's to post a well considered attack on the TBB package as I just think that anyone who's against it is working on gut feeling. I encourage such people to vote yes and lets try platesting so that gut feeling can be consolidated into some hard data examples or hopefully dissipate As someone posted early on maybe the BBRC should consider more closely after playtesting. After the last RR there were a few sore points implemented that many people felt had not been well enough playtested and others (ogre team) that had been thoroughly playtested. This could a be a reason why some people may be unwilling to try playtesting these rules for fear of implied endorsement for rules change.

[Grumbledook]

well all super players will eventually get dealt with

as they get super and the longer they stay on the team they tend to pick up more and more spp and then obviously take up more TR

the higher the tr the harder it will be to keep hiring an apothcary, give away more handicaps and also the money will be coming in slower

to compensate this with the tr the coach may well drop some of the middle ranged players

if they keep doing this the team will be one star and a lot of poor average players, in a match take out the star and you have a weak team to beat, or when the star does die then the rest of the team will be a lot weaker than it was when they were there and they have to go about redeveloping the team

the other case of course is to retire the star player and then bring in fresh talent to build up and replace him, you can see this happening in real life sports all the time

[neoliminal]

Galak. You said that this team was an example of a situation where you felt a choice would be forced on you. That you, as a coach, wouldn't be able to make an interesting choice. What I want to do is test that theory.

Code: Select all

Animal House
Race: Khemri
Coached by: The Trainer (Brian Hixon)
# PLAYER'S NAME POSITION MA ST AG AV SKILLS INJ COMP TD INT CAS MVP SPP VALUE 
1 Godzilla Mummy 3 5 1 8 Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Block, Tackle, Guard, AV -1         9 3 33 $110,000  
2 King Kong Mummy 3 5 1 9 Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Guard, Piling On, Block, Tackle, Break Tackle         33 2 76 $110,000  
3 Mothra 2 Mummy 3 5 1 9 Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Block       1 3   8 $110,000  
4 Iron Giant Mummy 3 5 1 9 Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Block, Tackle         6 1 17 $110,000  
5 Lassie Thro-Ra 5 3 3 7 Sure Hands, Pass, Regenerate, Accurate, Block     2   6   18 $70,000  
6 Silver Thro-Ra 5 3 3 7 Sure Hands, Pass, Regenerate, Block, Kick     3   1 1 16 $70,000  
7 Old Yeller Blitz-Ra 6 3 2 8 Block, Regenerate, Stand Firm, Dodge     6   1   20 $90,000  
8 Rin Tin Tin Blitz-Ra 6 3 2 8 Block, Regenerate, Stand Firm, Dodge, Frenzy     5   3 2 31 $90,000  
9 Azmar Kalazar Bonz Skeleton 5 3 3 7 Regenerate, Sure Hands, Block, AG +1   6 6   1 3 40 $30,000  
10 Fetch Skeleton 7 3 3 7 Regeneration, AG +1, MA +1, Block, MA +1, Sure Hands N   22   2 3 85 $30,000  
11 Sel Fish Skeleton 5 3 2 7 Regeneration, Block, Dauntless M   1   3 2 19 $30,000  
12 Ball 2 Skeleton 5 3 2 7 Regenerate               $30,000  
13 Gluttony Skeleton 5 4 2 7 Regenerate, Block, ST +1 N       2 3 19 $30,000  
14 Rawhide Skeleton 5 3 2 7 Regenerate, Block, Leader N   1   7   17 $30,000  
15 Dolgan Goldstrike Skeleton 5 3 2 7 Regenerate, Block, Tackle M       8   16 $30,000  
16 Squeeker 2 Skeleton 5 3 2 7 Regenerate               $30,000  
 Team: Animal House RE-ROLLS: 5 x $70,000 = $350,000  
 Race: Khemri FAN FACTOR: 17 x $10,000 = $170,000  
 Team Rating: 229 ASSISTANT COACHES:   x $10,000 = $0  
 Treasury: $0  CHEERLEADERS:   x $10,000 = $0  
 Coach: The Trainer (Brian Hixon) APOTHECARY:   x $50,000 =    
 TEAM WIZARD:   x $150,000 =    
 TOTAL VALUE/COST OF TEAM $1,440,000  

Make a choice. Get rid of 4 or more TR.

[GalakStarscraper]

Grumble hit my goal with the package in his last post.

There are a lot of folks who think it fun to develop a great player. Griff came for somewhere didn't he????

I'm one of those people that really enjoy developing my team. I wanted a flexible system that allowed coaches to develop super stars if that was really what they wanted. BUT ... like Grumble said ... if you develop such players it will be at the cost of other areas of your team.

Now ... take a look at the simple scaled handicap table I posted. 50% of the Desperate Measure target the super stars of a team. And 1 of the 6 Random Events does as well. That means that means at a handicap of 75 points, I have a 67% chance of nailing your stars.

IE ... this is why I call it I say its a package. The better handicap table takes the place of aging in some ways by adding problems for stars playing against weaker teams. If two teams of like TR play, let them bring out their best players and bash heads.

Looking at just negative winnings and saying ... "it doesn't handle stars" ... or to quote:

it would still provide a supa playa reducer which the current TBB package doesn't address (super orc players for example are let off by the TBB Package)

Forgets the other stuff in the package. Freebooted apothecaries means that super orc doesn't have an apothecary to save him from a hard hit. A better handicap table means that if he's playing weaker teams he probably won't take the field at all ... (negative winnings can = team debt which when you + Appearance Fee = best player (ie super Orc) misses game).

Its a package for a reason. Each step is there to cover the holes from the other steps.

Galak

[Grumbledook]

yer neoliminal that sucks though having to just get rid of 4 tr in order to be able to play a match, where is the fun in that

its the same sort of rule that would push players out just like saying you have to play with painted minis or some such thing

no one wants to be forced to do things, a system that the coach can ignore and fight against it while still playing is a much better thing no?

[GalakStarscraper]

Galak. You said that this team was an example of a situation where you felt a choice would be forced on you. That you, as a coach, wouldn't be able to make an interesting choice. What I want to do is test that theory.

You are misquoting me ... I said I would hate being forced to make the choice right before the championship.

I have a lot of choices:
1) Drop a team reroll. But I'm Khemri so those rerolls are kinda important to ball handling and doing this RIGHT BEFORE the championship would s*ck.
2) Retire both rookie skeletons and grab the 2 Assistant Coaches. But this means playing the championship with only 12 players and with 3 players with Niggles ... there are 42% odds I'll only be playing with 11 players for the championship.
3) I could retire either my Leader or my +1 ST niggled skeleton. However these are both pretty key to my team for a championship match so that would really bite also.

If you forced me to choose, I'd retire the skeleton with Block and Leader which would mean that I was down to 13 players for the upcoming match and would only have 31% chance off playing with 12 players from the Niggle rolls.

But John ... you are completely missing my point. WHY do I have to be FORCED to make that decision. The Negative Winnings package would allow that person to incur debt, not retire anyone, play the championship, and then after the big game, retire some folks.

This isn't about whether I CAN make the decision to cut my team its about WHEN. And I truely believe that the best system that can be offered gives ME complete freedom of when to make that decision ... not because some table now says "you must now cut your roster"

Its the difference between allowing coaches to manage their team in their own style and being Big Brother and saying "oh no .... you appear to be incapable of managing your team so we won't let you play anymore until you make it look proper according to LRB regulations 2.3.4"

Big Brother rules indicated that coaches are simple minded idiots incapable of making decisions. Since I love and play this game quite a bit, I enjoy having the rules allow me to use my brain and not be built in a way to think for me.

Galak

[Jugular]

OK I'm convinced Galak I'm rearing to go on the playtesting front. I guess itll take a little time before somewhere like FUMBBL will decide whether or not to try this and can implement the functionality to playtest the package. If anyone needs more coaches for playtesting this package alongside the current LRB I'm up for it

[Grumbledook]

the implementation of the basic stuff to get this onto fumbbl is rather easy if you ignore the handicaps

i would certainly like to see this in divx to run along side the current rules and see how things develope

then should ski implement the handicap table as well all the better cause we could use that in both divisions

[GalakStarscraper]

The other issue I've seen posted is that Regeneration gets better under this plan.

Now this is one I have to chuckle at because I don't know how many threads I've seen bemoaning 4+ Regeneration (asking that it be dropped to 3+) or that Ghouls and Werewolves should have apothecaries.

I'm inclinced to believe that this effect won't be particularly noticed. Regeneration is still a poor man's apothecary. If the Undead team starts to pull slighly ahead, the Tiered handicap system gives extra handicaps ever 10 points, so its built in to combat this.

This is one of the points that would really need playtested, but looking over the FUMBBL data ... Undead, Khemri, and Necro teams are not really posting high TRs. Only two have broken the 300 TR mark with 343 and 311 out of the 34 teams that have broken TR 300 there. So for these teams they'd still be dealing with a better handicap table and fiercer niggle penalties (these 2 TR 300+ Undead teams have 13!!! Niggles between the two of them) ... so my gut says the data shows that the Regen teams would struggle just as much as the other teams still to climb up the ladder.

Data is a wonderful thing if you take the time to shift through it. But my job is data shifting so I don't mind.

Galak

[mikeyc222]

hey galak, are you going to be play testing these rules in an online league? if so, do you have room for one more coach?
no one in my league is really responding to my requests to playtest this, and a few a bemoaning the loss of a full time apoth. i really want to see this playtested and would prefer to have personal experience with it.