Hard TR Caps vs Negative Winnings+Freebooted Apoths

[pfooti]

Finally, it seems that the three (as I read it) possibilites we are looking at, LRB, BBRC, TBB, will all accomplish the final goal of TR capping and keeping runaway star teams under control, but the TBB system will do it more subtly and without guaranteed results. I could bring a 500 point team to my league championship, provided I got lucky and my players didn't get killed getting there.

I can guarantee that with the TBB system, if a team gets to TR 500, half of that rating will be it's negative treasury! Which means no apothecaries, ever again. Which means that if a player dies, the team will never be able to afford to replace him. The team will end up with 5 or 6 players and a TR of ~250. Every coach will have retired the team long before this, or taken steps to avoid getting in this position. Guaranteed...

Oh, I agree with you. It is extremely unlikely that I'd be able to build an uber-team under the negative-winnings rules. Even if I did, my oppos would get a ton of handicap rolls. But it could happen, if, for example, my oppos simply couldn't roll 4-6 on the sigurd die. The TR capping effect of the TBB package is better than that of the Aging system (I had a DE team where the first two 5-skill players had a single -1AV aging roll between the two of them) because it is an ongoing effect (no 'poth, for example), rather than a once in a while off-pitch effect.

My point was just that there are extreme situations where the TBB system could fail. Degenerate cases, if you will. A hard TR cap guarantees no degenerate cases. But then again, those degenerate cases really only exists in the minds of us degenerates, which brings me around to: that's why I think the TBB package is a great idea, worth bringing online, at least as experimental rules, potentially as core rules.

[Joemanji]

Those degenerate cases are millions to one against ever happing, so yeah, its not really a flaw in the TBB system.

[BullBear]

Doh!
I screwed up my vote!
I wanted to vote the TBB package, but voted TBB package with changes (see below).

[mikeyc222]

Step 4: Add the Simplified Coach's Choice Negative Winnings rule:
Note: If your cash roll at the end of a game is negative, this amount is deducted from your treasury. This may cause your treasury to go negative. If it does, the negative amount is recorded to your roster as a team debt (ie negative cash). Negative treasuries will be treated as if they are positive treasuries for Team Rating points. You cannot purchase anything for your team if your treasury is negative.

hey galak, question...is the - winnings refering to a new winnings table or the current LRB table? i have been off the board for several days so i might have missed this point.

[Grumbledook]

it works on the current table

[GalakStarscraper]

hey galak, question...is the - winnings refering to a new winnings table or the current LRB table? i have been off the board for several days so i might have missed this point.

I based all my research on the rule with the current table.

Spent several days with FUMBBL data before I first brought up the concept. The top 30 teams in FUMBBL are all over TR 300 currently and that league is LRB based but with no handicap table. The handicap table accounts for some of the TR spiral but definitely not what is being seen there.

The nice thing about FUMBBL is that you can fully research a team's history. Looking through the winnings of the teams with TR of 300 or more I found that the average team was hitting a point around TR 250 to 275 where they would have hit a negative winning wall point. Now in another thread, TR 200 to 250 was the most preferred point for teams to crest with 250 to 300 having a goodly amount of voting also.

So my research from FUMBBL showed that the negative winnings rule should kick in with the current rules around 250 to 275 on TR which seemed pretty optimal based on discussions about what coaches wanted.

The other reason I brought up the rule was because negative winnings never effected short term leagues which was another thing I was trying to be aware of.

Someone from TBB suggested the concept of 10k freebooted apothecaries. Since this rule had some very nice short term league effects to actually HELP short term leagues, it was the icing on making the package work. There are a lot of Dwarf/Orc type teams that are very good at resisting more than one injury in a match at higher TR levels. Take away their Apoth and even those teams start to get trimmed down.

This whole 5 step package is the results of a lot of hours of crunching through real (not hypothetical) data from several different leagues.

I'm sorry to see the 50% approval rating especially since we've had so little feedback from the NOs .... which is what I wanted and hoped for from posting to several boards outside of TBB and inviting them here to vote.

Galak

[Full_Block]

[quote]how can it be fair if it isn't balanced, [/quote]
11 Halflings with a TR 100 playing against 11 Orcs with a TR 125 is fair.

11 Humans with TR 100 playing against 11 Humans with a TR 100 with both teams having exactly the same skills is balanced.

I can understand what fool is saying and I agree with him totally. I've played in a league like that and although its not my preference it works just great.

Funny, how all you who criticized him haven't even tried to playtest his system yet you're asking him to do so for yours. And he says that he's playtested both negative winnings and his system but you still jump on him for being ill-informed. He has a kneejerk reaction apparently... yet he obviously read the entire thread thoroughly (all 80+ posts) and Grumbledook posted his reply within 30 minutes! Talk about a kneejerk reaction there. You don't like something, so instead of giving it a try, you shout at it. But of course, you still want people to give your favored system a try... Pathetic.

[Joemanji]

Our reaction to Fool was swift because everything he mention has come up before and been discussed in much depth. His criticisms were ones that are brought up by everyone who sees the TBB system for the first time without really understanding it. Seen it before many times. Couldn't be bothered to go through the laborious process of explanation and counter argument again, when it is clear and obvious if you have been following this topic for a while. Sorry if that isn't the right attitude in your mind, but you can only explain something so many times before you start to get frustrated.

[GalakStarscraper]

Funny, how all you who criticized him haven't even tried to playtest his system yet ..... .... ... ... Pathetic.

Full_Block ... I did read his entire system. I just really have no desire to have any player that I own get an automatic niggle after 6 games and a 2nd after 9. That works for his league and I am the first person to stress that anyone's rules for their own league are wonderful (ie see the MBBL2 for my proof of that) ... however ... if you took out everything else he posted and just added this you'd probably create long term balance in leagues so yeah I'm sure his system works to create long term balance.

You'd also have the largest angry mob I think I've ever seen in BB history collecting outside the homes of each of the BBRC members and GW-UK.
Now I'd just like to try and have long term balance without the angry mob if I can avoid it.

Galak

[Grumbledook]

Freebooting Apothecary. This is a very bad idea. With Negative Winnings, the most powerful teams aren't going to be able to get an Apothecary simply because they won’t have the ready cash. That means more Niggling Injuries (deaths would actually be beneficial but with Blood Bowl becoming less violent death on the field is much rarer than it used to be) which means the coach of a high ranked team will have to start dropping more players than he would normally, thus dropping his TR drastically (which I think was your intention). However, he still won’t have any money and he will probably have had to drop so many players that it will be very hard for him to win games. His FF will subsequently drop and money will become even more scarce. The end result is that the coach will end up with a team that's worse than a rookie team. Why bother working that hard to get nowhere? I've seen this happen with both the LRB rules and the XP system. Nobody likes it much, but freebooting the Apothecary will make it happen more often. Oh, and it punishes short-term leagues!

my comments were mainly about what he original put as quoted above

if you read through what he put that there is what a knee jerk reaction is

if you take the time to look at the negative winnings from a standing data aspect (and apply it to existing data) then you can see it certainly isn't going to result in the hyperbole filled example as demonstated above

because of that it leads me to think that he doesn't see the full picture on the idea and why it is beleived to be good one for testing

now we know its not been tested yet, this the whole point to work out something that would be the best to test and see if it works as thought

his system of game based aging was already shot down with the EXP system that was discussed over a year ago, its not like this whole concept hasn't been argued from many directions previously

the premise behind this thread is for people to point out flaws in the system and thats what his view was, but it was a view based not on looking at the numbers but on a more knee jerk reaction

i certainly don't like the fact you accuse of the use of shouting down, i try to construct my posts with explanation behind my points

[Joemanji]

This must be really frustrating for you Galak. You come up with a beautiful system. But because it works subtly, people don't grasp it and instead come along with the likes of:

Stage 1 (6th game for our league, which has about 12+ games per season): Gain 1 Niggling Injury.
Stage 2 (9th game): Gain second Niggling Injury.
Stage 3 (12th game): Lose a point of MA, lose one skill, gain Pro or Leader.
Stage 4 (18th game): Lose another point of MA and a point of ST or AG, whichever is higher. Also, gain third Niggling Injury.
Stage 5 (24th game): Retire.

as viable alternatives.

[Joemanji]

Galak, I thought you were planning to use NegWins in the MBBL next year? Just flicking through the settings in the new pbembb_tool2.4e, and noticed that box isn't ticked for MBBL (though it is for MBBL2).

[Anthony_TBBF]

My answer to this Anthony would simply be this:

JJ wanted the game to be playable forever using the official LRB rules if a league wanted to never reset.

When he formed the BBRC he gave them that as their primary mission.

Fair enough. To be honest I don't see the problem. My league has long seasons and very rarely is there a team that runs away so much that it is unbeatable. Then again we do have a regular "thinning out" using rules loosely based on the Crush. If I was going to design a system to curb team growth I would much rather it be a "fluffy" system like that.

[neoliminal]

Galak:

My point is that while nazgit spent half a page extolling the virtues of his system, I gave two lines. Nothing there to like, and the poll makes it sound like the BBRC would come over and force some level on you.

Not how I was attempting to explain my idea at all.

[neoliminal]

Code: Select all

Animal House
Race: Khemri
Coached by: The Trainer (Brian Hixon)
# PLAYER'S NAME POSITION MA ST AG AV SKILLS INJ COMP TD INT CAS MVP SPP VALUE 
1 Godzilla Mummy 3 5 1 8 Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Block, Tackle, Guard, AV -1         9 3 33 $110,000  
2 King Kong Mummy 3 5 1 9 Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Guard, Piling On, Block, Tackle, Break Tackle         33 2 76 $110,000  
3 Mothra 2 Mummy 3 5 1 9 Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Block       1 3   8 $110,000  
4 Iron Giant Mummy 3 5 1 9 Mighty Blow, Regenerate, Block, Tackle         6 1 17 $110,000  
5 Lassie Thro-Ra 5 3 3 7 Sure Hands, Pass, Regenerate, Accurate, Block     2   6   18 $70,000  
6 Silver Thro-Ra 5 3 3 7 Sure Hands, Pass, Regenerate, Block, Kick     3   1 1 16 $70,000  
7 Old Yeller Blitz-Ra 6 3 2 8 Block, Regenerate, Stand Firm, Dodge     6   1   20 $90,000  
8 Rin Tin Tin Blitz-Ra 6 3 2 8 Block, Regenerate, Stand Firm, Dodge, Frenzy     5   3 2 31 $90,000  
9 Azmar Kalazar Bonz Skeleton 5 3 3 7 Regenerate, Sure Hands, Block, AG +1   6 6   1 3 40 $30,000  
10 Fetch Skeleton 7 3 3 7 Regeneration, AG +1, MA +1, Block, MA +1, Sure Hands N   22   2 3 85 $30,000  
11 Sel Fish Skeleton 5 3 2 7 Regeneration, Block, Dauntless M   1   3 2 19 $30,000  
12 Ball 2 Skeleton 5 3 2 7 Regenerate               $30,000  
13 Gluttony Skeleton 5 4 2 7 Regenerate, Block, ST +1 N       2 3 19 $30,000  
14 Rawhide Skeleton 5 3 2 7 Regenerate, Block, Leader N   1   7   17 $30,000  
15 Dolgan Goldstrike Skeleton 5 3 2 7 Regenerate, Block, Tackle M       8   16 $30,000  
16 Squeeker 2 Skeleton 5 3 2 7 Regenerate               $30,000  
 Team: Animal House RE-ROLLS: 5 x $70,000 = $350,000  
 Race: Khemri FAN FACTOR: 17 x $10,000 = $170,000  
 Team Rating: 229 ASSISTANT COACHES:   x $10,000 = $0  
 Treasury: $0  CHEERLEADERS:   x $10,000 = $0  
 Coach: The Trainer (Brian Hixon) APOTHECARY:   x $50,000 =    
 TEAM WIZARD:   x $150,000 =    
 TOTAL VALUE/COST OF TEAM $1,440,000  

Make a choice. Get rid of 4 or more TR.