Diving Tackle timing question

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
I'm not that used to the new rules yet, so here's a quick question on the timing rules:

One AG3 player has dodge skill, an opposing player has dodge.
The dodge player dodges, and rolls a 3.
This would have been good enough, if it wasn't for the DT skill.

If he does not reroll now (i.e. before the opposing player has used his diving tackle skill), has he then forfeited his ability to use dodge skill on this dodge?

The timing rules seem to imply this by stating that if 2 players want to use their skill at the same time, then the "active" coach must go first.
Am I missing something?

Martin

[GalakStarscraper]

Since I have 4 DT players on my team I queried this one a while back.

In the case you described.

The Dodge is a success, so the opponent chooses to apply Diving Tackle to the roll which will make the Dodge a failure. The important fact here is not to get balled up with Magic the Gathering type timing.

Thus, the bottom line becomes that the new result is that DT has been used and the Dodge is a failure. You may now choose to use the Dodge skill and reroll the result. It should be noted that the Diving Tackle -2 will still apply to the 2nd roll.

Last note: The Diving Tackle player MUST go prone if the skill is declared to modify EITHER dice roll. So in the example above if the Dodge re-roll results in a 6 and I get away, the DT player still goes prone from the modification of the 1st roll. This is the only time that a DT player will go prone without causing a turnover.

Galak

[plasmoid]

Thanks Galak,
quite a relief actually
The timing hasn't become too complex
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi again Galak,
perhaps this is a stupid question, but I'm being challenged by a coach in the league.
So - would the ruling be the same of the involved skills were DT and break tackle (rather than dodge)?

And if yes, then: Can you mention a single situation where the above mentioned timing rule is used (and makes any kind of sense).

Thanks,
Martin

[GalakStarscraper]

I guess I don't think of it as timing.

Look skill can now be used after the dice rolls. Basically the opponent goes first and then you get to go.

Example:

ST 5/AG3 Rat Ogre player with Break Tackle does away from DT player into one TZ (so at 5 he needs a 2+ and at 3 he needs a 4+) . The RO rolls a 4. The opposing player knows that that RO will need to dodge again in order to make the big play, so he Diving Tackles the player. The RO now needs to use his Break Tackle in order for the dodge to still be successful. Thus the Rat Ogre dodges away, but he does not have his Break Tackle skill for the 2nd dodge, and the DT player is prone.

You can call it timing, but basically the DT player declares first and then the dodging player chooses to use his one use options: DT, Dodge, Team Re-roll.

Galak

[Vitalis]

It seems to me, that this way of using/interpreting the rules is both needlessly complicated as well as - well - wrong.

How about this one:

The player dodges away from the DT-player.
As per the rules the coach must now decide whether or not to use a reroll (skill-based or otherwise).
If he so chooses (or not) he can not change his mind about this.

Now the DT-players coach can decide whether or not to use DT.

This conforms to the wording on page 15 of the Living Rule Book:

If both coaches want to use a skill to effect the same action or move, then the coach whose team turn is taking place must use his skill first.

This wording in the rule book leaves IMHO no possibility for your current use of the DT-skill.

Am I dead wrong here???
Anyone??????

[GalakStarscraper]

I can see how that line of the rulebook would suggest that ... but nothing in that line says that the coach whose turn it is cannot use skills after the opponent.

Okay I have an AG 3 player who is doding away and has the Dodge skill.
My opponent has Diving Tackle.

I roll a 3 which means that I dodge away just fine ... my turn to declare skill ... no skills to declare since the dodge was successful.

My opponent announces that he wants to use Diving Tackle which cause the dodge roll to fail.

Now its back to me ... since the dodge is now a failure I use my Dodge skill to reroll and try to get the 5+ that I now need ... whether I succeed for fail my opponent use Diving Tackle and will go prone after the rerolled dodge.

Nothing in page 15 forbids the active player to respond to the use of skills .. it just says he goes first ... doesn't say he cannot go third.

I'm really sure that this is how if works ... Neo if he reads this can chime in, but when I programmed in the Diving Tackle skill for the PBeM tool, I asked Acerak/Chet of the BBRC about a trillion questions on Diving Tackle so that I understood how it worked.

Galak

[Vitalis]

This leads to a situation when the dodging coach does not use his skill before the DT-coach.

The exact opposite of the rule quoted above.

[GalakStarscraper]

If you want to read it as an exception thats fine.

I speak from having had the powers that be rule on this issue specifically. The ruling was that Dodge could be used in response to Diving Tackle be used. That creates an inconsistency in the rules that they will need to clean up, but it doesn't change the fact that this is the way it was meant to work.

Otherwise Vitalis, if we maintain your position we'll get this:

Amazon player is dodging away from a DT player into no TZs.

She rolls a 4, she looks at the DT players and thinks .... he could use his Diving Tackle skill to make me fail so I'll declare using my Dodge skill. The DT coach does nothing in response. The Amazon rerolls and gets a 2 which causes her to fail the Dodge. The DT player does not have to go prone because he never used the skill.

Now you have to admit the above is just plain absurd in terms of logic and game effect. By forcing to make the Dodging player use Dodge first, you make the Diving Tackle skill a must have skill since it becomes incredibly powerful.

I understand that the rules need worded better, but if Acerak was not on vacation, he'd tell you that the intention is that Dodge can be declared after Diving Tackle.

Galak

[Vitalis]

The wording in the rule book should be changed to remove the inconsistency.

It is true, that my erroneous interpretation of the DT-skill makes it a must-have skill.
Allowing dodge after the DT-call tones the skill down to a managable beast.

Suggestion:
Correct the wording in The LRB that states the sequence as 'coach A must declare before coach B' to may in stead of must.