You MUST try to catch the ball

longfang · Post by **longfang** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 6:16 pm

There is less chance of the ball scattering in your direction and your player catching the scattered ball than rolling a 1 on a go for it which not only stops your TD scoring drive but also loses the ball. If you do catch the ball then you just have to protect the guy and hope for the best. If it stops you scoring the TD to tie or win the game then tough. Perhaps you should thinkt about the ball scattering before you follow up with the blocking/blitzing player, if you don'tt follow up, another player will be free to move in a pick up the ball. If it happens in a large group of players then it's just the nature of a brawl. Any game where there is a lot of players scrapping over the ball is going to be a slow game.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 6:19 pm

I agree with Longfang on this one.

If the ball scattering to the blitzer is a big deal ... don't follow up.

Galak

longfang · Post by **longfang** » Sun Jun 16, 2002 6:39 pm

Wayhay, I'm in with the big boy's now.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Mon Jun 17, 2002 11:28 am

Now that the free hand-offs are gone this is one of the consequences. But on the whole, I feel that this is a small price to pay for getting rid of the free hand-offs. I haven't been winning so easily in our new league as I can't abuse the hand-off possibility with my teams

But if somebody feels that getting screwed by the stupid scattering+catching of the ball in the last turn, introduce a house rule that lets the coach "buy" a free hand-off with a re-roll if they haven't used one during the turn.
But in any case a player should, just like the rules state, try to catch the ball - whether the coach wants or not should have no effect.

Ryk · Post by **Ryk** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 5:52 am

Scott,

As far as I can tell, this decision was made to be consistent with the rulling on "kicking the ball around" or rucking".

I am uncertain why, but there is a vocal section of the BB community who consider "rucking" to be illegitimate or 'beardy'.

There is an opinion that allowing it creates the possibility of some strange situations. Whether these are any stranger than your already moved player catching the ball, is a matter for conjecture.

There appears to be a belief that "rucking" creates easier rolls on the pickup, essentially at little to no cost. Making one dice roll, in order to increase your chances on another, however, seems a lot like GFI to reduce the passing range.

Arguments based on "realism" tend to be conceived after a 'gut feeling' decision has already been made.

'Gut feeling' decisions on "rucking", for mine, were largely made on whether the player or his opponent conceived the idea first.

Ryk

As a side note, "may", in the Queen's English, indicates permission, not obligation.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:33 am

Given I've been arguing against forced pickups/catches for at least 3 years now I really don't want to go too far into this cos, frankly, it makes me tired all over.

One thought tho: In the absence of being able to "ruck" the ball, I've seen a number of players in several league matches and tournament matches set up blocks so that they can clobber an opponent onto the ball to make it scatter.

Now, assuming you're stuck on the idea that picking up the ball is the "realistic" thing to do (I, for one, do not), you have to acknowledge the fact that coaches are setting up rather artificial means to start a loose ball scattering, by pushing opposing players onto it.

If you've got a situation where coaches require loophole solutions to simple actions, it's probably better just to let them do what they were trying to do in the first place.

Gall the Thrall can go sell hotdogs. Rucking is a legitimate, realistic and exciting tactic.

Mark

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:39 pm

The league I play in has a house rule that means no forced catches or pickups.

The major effect of the ruling is that it stops coaches protecting the ball with TZ's to make a pickup almost impossible. So coaches are encouraged to pick the ball up and try and do something with it, encouraging more attacking play.

The other side effect is that you don't have to catch the ball if it does bounce into a player's hands.

You don't very often see coaches trying to ruck the ball into another player's hands, since its a 1/8 chance of going to the right player (who still has to make the catch), but you do see coaches rucking the ball in the hope of putting it into the clear.

Bob-the-Fish · Post by **Bob-the-Fish** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:04 pm

I have always played it that a player does not have to catch a moving ball(droped, bouncing, pass) but a player that enters the square where the ball is sationary must try to pick it up. That stops "rucking" but means that if the ball bounces to a Saurus after the carrier is flattened it doesn't automatically mean the end of the Lizards turn. I don't play lizards but my chaos dwarfs and rat ogres have the same problem. A failed catch is a tunrover so forcing a AG 1 or AG 2 player on the moving team to catch the ball really puts a hugehole in their blitz and score plays.
And "realistically," why would a raging Minotaur ever want to touch the ball anyway?

[/u]

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:32 pm

Bob, a failed catch is not a turnover.
See p8 of the LRB.
A Pass that isn't caught by a player on the moving team is a turnover.
A failed pick up of a stationary ball is a turnover.

The problem is when one of your players catches a scattering ball when it's better for you that he doesn't.

Question: Is there any other situation is BB where you'd benefit from using a Skill or TRR to reroll a dice in order to try and fail a roll you've just passed? To me that's a ludicrous situation.

christer · Post by **christer** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 11:27 pm

A Pass that isn't caught by a player on the moving team is a turnover.

.. With the obvious exception of Dump-off...

-- Christer

Bob-the-Fish · Post by **Bob-the-Fish** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:37 am

Deathwing,
Thats just another one of those things that needs clearing up. We've always assumed that if you fail to catch a ball(any ball) that is moving or you fail to pick up the ball, your turn ends. The rules don't specify whether failing to "pick up the the ball" (LRB) means when you move into the square where it is or if your just trying to gain possesion of it under any circumstances other than catching a pass. I think it was the 4th edition rules said that any failed action was a turnover and that would have been a failed action and our house rule of not requiring players to attempt a catch it just a hangover from that.
I still think it is "realistic" not to force players to try and catch the ball. Saurus could be too slow in the head to think of catching a bouncing ball, Minotaurs too crazy, treemen too slow and maybe the rest are too scared they'll get smashed.
But a player that moves into the square where the ball is stationary should always have to attempt to pick it up. That's the way I've always seen it done but maybe if they clarify the turnover rules we can finally nail down exactly what will cause a turnover instead of always having to second guess what they were thinking when they wrote it.

High & Mighty · Post by **High & Mighty** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 3:30 am

Thats just another one of those things that needs clearing up. We've always assumed that if you fail to catch a ball(any ball) that is moving or you fail to pick up the ball, your turn ends.

It actually is explicitly in the LRB, though there is an apparent contradiction that could be redrafted. The distinction is that BB defines two distinct things that can happen with a ball:

Picking up the ball (page 9),
If a player moves into a square in which the football is lying, they must attempt to pick it up. Players that move into the square with the ball at other times (ie when pushed back, etc.) can't pick up the ball, and instead, it will bounce one square.

Catching a pass or bouncing ball-they are defined as the same thing-(page 14)
If the football lands in a square occupied by a standing player, then the player must attempt to catch the football.

The turnover section on page 14 then seems to muddy things by saying that if the ball isn't caught by a player from the moving team, a turnover takes place, but by the LRB's own text on that same page, a player on defense is still trying to "catch" the ball, and thus it's possible to think that causes a turnover...

BUT

Turning to page 8, player actions can only technically be performed during your own turn, and these actions are move, block, blitz, and pass, thus catching is not an action so failing a catch is not the failed action. Failing the pass (not completing it) is the failure. If you didn't pass it, you can't fail it.

This is spelled out in black and white on page 8's section on turnovers (does the LRB really need more than one section on turnovers??) . 1) A turnover happens when the ball is passed and not caught. 2) A turnover happens when a player tries to pick up a ball (which is defined as voluntarily entering a square on your turn to pick it up) and fails.

It is there. They just didn't want to make it too obvious.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:17 am

If kicking the ball around would be allowed, it could be a good place to boost up the kick-skill: if the player kicking the ball around has kick, then he can use the throw-in template and place it into the direction he wants, instead of using the scatter template...

Not a really serious suggestion, but somebody might like the idea.

Catching the ball should definitely remain mandatory.
Kicking the ball around could be considered - it'd maybe help low-ag strength teams a bit?

Don Khan · Post by **Don Khan** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 3:32 pm

Just a silly question :
If you faill to pick up the ball, and if that ball bounce on an oponent who try to catch it and failed too, and after all that this f... ball came back into the hands of the primary picker (seems unbelievable? Just happen to me in my game) is it a turnover for the offence?
(I'sure it is, but i'd like to save the life of my titchy guy who finally has the ball rounded by mighty and udges chaos guys...

Please blood bowls gods help me!!!

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 3:34 pm

Yep it's a turnover, but hey at least you have the ball

Talk Fantasy Football

You MUST try to catch the ball

Stationary=must pick up, Moving=can let it scatter