Tricky TTM Query

[Babs]

So the question is this:

Is it a TO if a thrown player hits another player, but doesn't have the ball?

Surely people have had this happen in their leagues - how has it been ruled?

All I'm stating is it is apparent from the text, that landing out of bounds, and finishing up the hurtle through the air in another players square are related experiences as both are throws without landing rolls.

To be consistent, if one is a turnover, then the other should also be.

If you claim that going into the crowd is a turnover, then so also should be landing on another player.

However, in my humble opinion, it is implicated in the passage, that unless you have the ball, no TO.

As long as the thrown player lands in an empty square,
then the next step is to make a roll to see if he manages
to land on his feet (see Landing below). If the thrown
player ends up out of bounds then they are beaten up by
the crowd just as if they had been pushed out of bounds.
If they land on top of another player, then both they and
the other player are knocked over, and the player that
they hit scatters one square in a random direction.

Note it's talking about the "Next step". Although the wording refers specifically to "a failed roll" not resulting in a turnover - it's not too much of an extrapolation to see they mean a "failed landing". And in the two exceptions (hitting another player, ending up in the crowd) there is definately no landing roll required as they automatically fail their landing (as prescribed in the text).

Would one word added help clarify?

If the dice roll is less than the required total, then
they fall over on landing and the opposing coach may
make an Armour roll to see if they are injured. A failed
roll(insert landing instead of roll) does not count as a turnover unless the player
was holding the ball.

[plasmoid]

Hi Babs,
please, for the sake of my sanity, let's talk about what the rules state, not what they can be made to say.
If extrapolations and imagined re-writes were acceptable, then the rulebook would be pretty useless.

What the rules do state is that if you land in an empty square, then the next step is to make a landing roll.
Neither the crowd or another player is an empty square.

The rules also clearly state that failing a landing roll is not a turnover.

AFAIK, unless explicitly modified, the basic turn over rules apply. And this is the situation which is mentioned.

IMO, if a crash didn't cause a TO, then neither should a fumble.
But I find nothing in the rules that state anything like "a TTM attempt will never cause a turn over unless the player was holding the ball".

The original question sprang from this:
There is a basic TO rule stating that a fumble, or getting a player knocked over is a turn over. But, currently there is no TO rule stating that a straight injury roll is a TO.
So, currently, a crowd-crash is not covered by the TO rules.

Martin

[GalakStarscraper]

So the question is this:

Is it a TO if a thrown player hits another player, but doesn't have the ball?

IMO ... yes with the current LRB wording.

All I'm stating is it is apparent from the text, that landing out of bounds, and finishing up the hurtle through the air in another players square are related experiences as both are throws without landing rolls.

To be consistent, if one is a turnover, then the other should also be.

Agreed ... both should be turnovers.

However, in my humble opinion, it is implicated in the passage, that unless you have the ball, no TO.

Here is completely and fully agree with plasmoid. You cannot implicate rules. You have to read the text as given or the LRB is meaningless as a rules source.

The rules say:

A failed roll does not count as a turnover unless the player was holding the ball.

There are not rolls for crowd crashes and coming down in a square with a player. No failed roll ... no ability to use the no turnover rule.

If you think this is not the way it should work. The rules should read:

An inaccurate or accurate Throw Team-Mate pass will never count as a turnover regardless of final state of the thrown player unless the thrown player was holding the ball and fails to land successfully on his feet.

I have no problem if this is how you want TTM to work. But get the LRB changed so that implication and interpretation isn't necessary to deduce that this is how it should work.

Galak

[Indigo]

If you think this is not the way it should work. The rules should read:

An inaccurate or accurate Throw Team-Mate pass will never count as a turnover regardless of final state of the thrown player unless the thrown player was holding the ball and fails to land.

I have no problem if this is how you want TTM to work. But get the LRB changed so that implication and interpretation isn't necessary to deduce that this is how it should work.

Galak

Should that not be:

An inaccurate or accurate Throw Team-Mate pass will never count as a turnover regardless of final state of the thrown player unless the thrown player was holding the ball and fails his landing roll.

or

An inaccurate or accurate Throw Team-Mate pass will never count as a turnover regardless of final state of the thrown player unless the thrown player was holding the ball and fails to land successfully on his feet.

After all, a player will ALWAYS land somewhere, whether that landing is successful or not is the issue. (isn't it?)

[GalakStarscraper]

Post edited above to reflect Indigo's more precise wording.

Galak

[Thadrin]

Let me get this straight then:
If the Goblin/halfling doesn't have the ball then a TTM action CAN NOT cause a TO (makes a Sprint/sure feet stunty potentially devastating on defence).
If the Goblin or stunty DOES have the ball then the stunty must land safely to avoid a turnover.

Or am I oversimplifying and in need of rereading this thread, because my head hurts after all of this...

[Grumbledook]

well thats how i have always seen it thadrin

[GalakStarscraper]

Let me get this straight then:
If the Goblin/halfling doesn't have the ball then a TTM action CAN NOT cause a TO (makes a Sprint/sure feet stunty potentially devastating on defence).
If the Goblin or stunty DOES have the ball then the stunty must land safely to avoid a turnover.

Or am I oversimplifying and in need of rereading this thread, because my head hurts after all of this...

That's what Babs is saying. However keep in mind that a Fumbled TTM is still a turnover (as is being eaten I think) even with what Babs has said.

Plasmoid and I just strongly disagree with Babs read of the LRB 2.0 as it currently is printed for this ruling. He and I think a player without the ball will also turnover for landing in the crowd or coming down on top of another player. However, never Plasmoid or I have said we would have a problem if the rule was reworded to work like Babs suggests it does.

Galak

[Bifi]

I know this is a bit off, but why don't the stunties have access to skills that would allow them land more safely? (Something like Sure Feet - reroll after a failed landing roll, etc.) It would definitely make the teams more interesting.

[plasmoid]

Another spin on the original question:
A Ball & Chain fanatic makes a bad move roll and wanders off the sidelines. Is this a turnover?
Nothing in the TO rules state that it should be.

Martin

[GalakStarscraper]

I know this is a bit off, but why don't the stunties have access to skills that would allow them land more safely? (Something like Sure Feet - reroll after a failed landing roll, etc.) It would definitely make the teams more interesting.

Some leagues have house ruled to create an Agility skill called Landing which adds +1 to the Landing roll. In fact the PBeM tool, recognizes this skill and will automatically add the +1 if you have it in the Settings to allow the skill.

Galak

[Bifi]

I know this is a bit off, but why don't the stunties have access to skills that would allow them land more safely? (Something like Sure Feet - reroll after a failed landing roll, etc.) It would definitely make the teams more interesting.

Some leagues have house ruled to create an Agility skill called Landing which adds +1 to the Landing roll. In fact the PBeM tool, recognizes this skill and will automatically add the +1 if you have it in the Settings to allow the skill.

Galak

Thanks Galak. (Although the re-roll would be more interesting, wouldn't it?)

[Babs]

All I'm trying to do is follow the train of logic in the rules. Remember that it's much more important to follow the 'spirit' of the rules than the letter of the law. This is a paraphrase direct from Jervis.

While TTM's not water tight - which rule is?
(Here's the classic - where does it state which square the ball scatters from if a ballcarrier is knocked down?)

Galak and Plasmoid are claiming point 2 of turnovers applies - and it's a turnover by a technical reading of the rules.

Just so as it's all settled, I've asked for it to be put into the FAQ from the BBRC this year.


A fumbled TTM is a turnover however, as per a pass, on p 21:

If the dice roll for a pass is 1 or less
before or after modification, then the thrower has
fumbled and dropped the ball. The ball will bounce once
from the thrower’s square, and the moving team will suffer a turnover
and their team turn ends immediately.

This applies because the throw is "Treated like a normal pass" and takes the team's pass action.

As for players who are eaten, randomly wander into the crowds etc. I think again the 'spirit' of point 2 of turnovers should read:
"A player on the moving team suffers an armour or injury roll, or the effects of such a roll are applied to them."

But the rulebook would start to look very strange if this wording was applied all over the place.

Maybe there just needs to be something in 'always hungry' about a turnover taking place. Which still doesn't stop the Fanatic situation.

Thank goodness for commissioners - they have a job to do.

[Bifi]

While TTM's not water tight - which rule is?
(Here's the classic - where does it state which square the ball scatters from if a ballcarrier is knocked down?)

Actually I think there's somewhere in the rules the statement that means something like "the player is pushed back and then knocked over before any other rolls are made (including scatter)" and "the ball scatters from the square in which the player was knocked over". Was this the situation you were referring to?

[Babs]

Bifi,

Physical challenge you to find anything clearer than this in the rules:

A player who falls over will drop the ball if he was
carrying it, and it will bounce one square in a random
direction (see Bouncing Balls, page 14).