Networked Blood Bowl Game

Be it FUMBBL, PBeM, the Cyanide Computer Game, VASSAL or whatever - talk about online play here.

This is also the place for discussing the various tools for managing leagues, teams and so on.

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christer
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Post by christer »

I THINK Ski was working on an SPP report for the end of the game ... not sure if its in there yet.
Yes it is.. At the whistle, a big friendly window popped up with SPP's nicely displayed. As well as the two SI's and one RIP I managed to cause.. ;)

-- Christer

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Toby

Post by Toby »

Galak, would you agree that if the program:

was 100% LRB 1.1, first of all. (is it yet?)

allowed you to import the official downloadable .xls team rosters before every game,
updated rosters during the game, and then allowed you to export your roster after each game,

That would be an perfect base to built on regarding the discussion i initiated and got driven away by some unlucky postings.

Would it ?

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GalakStarscraper
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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Yup ... already said so before.

I said if you combined the best elements of the PBeM program and SkiJunkie's program that you'd have what you were looking for when you first started talking about software, but it must not have sunk in.

The best elements of the PBeM program if you are creating a single rule based program (ie not customizing the rules) are:

1) The ability to import and export updated rosters.
2) The ability to save the game and rewind play to review it and then either break in at any point in the history to play or continue on from the last point.

Mix in these two elements with SkiJunkie's program and yes you have your base if it was fully LRB 1.1 compatiable.

That's why I kept asking you what was your problem with SkiJunkie's program other than the graphics, because I was pretty sure that the answer to your quest was already out there and you just didn't know or were not acknowledging it.

Galak

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Toby

Post by Toby »

My comments were in the wider context of commercial sucess.

That why i consider the things just said "a perfect point to start from"



There would be of course, like i pointed out before, tremendous possibilites with the funds for what i called a Professional BB Computer Game.

The single most important thing would be the servers that host BB Matches, store cheat free Team Rosters and provide a ladder system.

Second, of course the eye Candy and Graphics to compensate the lack of painted Miniatures !

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SkiJunkie
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Hopefully answers to some of the questions:

Post by SkiJunkie »

>BTW, how far along is Ski's program for the BB2k1 rules?
>Is it still mostly 3rd edition or is the LRB starting to
>show up more ... been a while since I played around
>with the program.

Lets see. These BB2k1 options are in the game. The default is off so you'll need to go into the options menu and enable them. (Only once though, the options panel has been improved to remember your selections between games)

bb2k1 winnings table
bb2k1 frenzy
bb2k1 takeroot
bb2k1 igmeoy
bb2k1 break tackle
bb2k1 leap
bb2k1 mighty blow
bb2k1 dirty player
bb2k1 auto catch and pickup
bb2k1 sure feet

I don't remember what bb2k1 stuff I am missing here? I think the kickoff order is the old 3rd ed. I think really stupid and bone head are the bb2k1 rules since I implemented them after bb2k1 came out.

>Lets see here.. from the match we played, it was rather h
>ard to see if it follows 2k1 or not.. I tried a foul at one
>point (late in the game), but didn't notice any penalty roll?
>Can you confirm this SkiJunkie? Maybe I was just not
>seeing it...

If you did not enable the "bb2k1 igmeoy" option then it uses the old 3rd edition rules where there is no penalty roll. You get caught when you roll doubles on the foul roll.

>The Blood Bowl is cool but the Look & Feel is so sub
>standard for me that i cant start to like it.
>Isnt there somebody here on the Board who is skilled in
>computer art to contribute to the progamm ?

Yep, I am no artist. I would love for people to send me their art and if I like it I'll put it in the game. Only one person has sent me player icons, and they did look pretty nice but I found them hard to see on the pitch. Especially when they are grayed after movement so I didn't end up using them. As for real time 3d. I don't think java is ready to handle that. :-)

>allowed you to import the official downloadable .xls team
>rosters before every game, updated rosters during the
>game, and then allowed you to export your roster after
>each game,

I haven't really played with the official xls team rosters. Can you export them to html or text? I never really looked at them because Milo's team .xls is so much better. Those can be exported to html from inside excel. Last version I used exported to html that my program can read. I didn't want to update rosters because that is where a lot of house rules come into play and I figured it would be annoying to have to undo and modification the program made. I may add this in as and option sometime but there are many other important in game features left to do first.

>The single most important thing would be the servers
>that host BB Matches, store cheat free Team Rosters
>and provide a ladder system.

I had a guy suggest once that I create a server that could manage the between game stuff. Players would log onto the server to roll for skills and buy players and such. This server would be responsible for all roster updates (roster kept on server to prevent cheating). What I suggested was he write this server, and I would have my client talk to his server. My client would get the team roster from the server as the game starts (so no cheating can happen) then once the game is done my client sends the game results to the server and the server handles the updates. Keeps my client basically the same. I never heard back from that guy.
:-)

Let me know if I missed answering anyones questions.

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Thanks Ski for the answers.

If you haven't programmed TTM yet ... have fun when you get there .. took me 3 nights to write it and since your client is fully automated you'll need to do a lot more with the ball bouncing around than I did for the PBeM tool.

Good luck, its nice to have the options for everyone.

Galak

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Toby

Post by Toby »

Hello SkiJunkie, first of all, nice to meet you and congratulations for your superb Tool/Game. Let me make absolutly clear that i fully understand that you are not Microsoft or something, so dont take any critizism personal or something.

Is Games Workshop aware of the existance of your Client ? would they be willing to pick up you and your project ?

I was wondering if it would be possible to split your program in 2 Modes, Namely "Official Match" and "House Rules Match". Perhaps you could add some kind of interface or editable file that allows customized rules and Teams.

I am more interested in the "Official Match" Mode. This would be playing a game of Blood Bowl, using the only Official Rulebook, Teams, Team Rosters and Reference Sheets.

I pointed out the "Rules must be set in Stone for World Wide Competitive Play" Argument earlier, and i stick to that opinion. People will play someone online, whom they never met before and can only communicate via a chat client, this is not the environment for unclear or customized rules.

As to the Team Roster, the best one should be the one to download from Fanatics, and be supported and or updated the same way as the Living Rulebook and the Reference Sheets.

The Java Blood Bowl Client should handle the Pre and Post Game Sequence as well, including Star Player Rolls, and update the Teams automatically, even adding some kind of protection to make cheat-editing harder. For Example one could only edit the document from within the Java Client to change Player Names.

So that way everything but a League or Ladder System reqired to play the Current LRB 1.1 Blood Bowl via the net would be provided, just the same way as if you were playing the Board Game.

Lacking Servers for Ladder play which is not realistic unless Games Workshop actually provides a server, i am sure the fans here would get along by emailing their results, as they do now already.

Some might say they want to play their Online Team Offline as well, that would in my opinion only be possible in house Rules Mode. If anyone knows what i mean its like open and closed Battle.net

Is it clear what i mean ? meet online and play just as if you took the Boardgame to a friend in an other town.


If THAT version of Java Bowl is availiable, i was willing to pay for it (shareware/freeware) and would actively try to push the thing towards improved Interface, Graphics, Sound and Presentation. 3 D is absolutely not required, but some kind of animation would be desirable.

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Post by SkiJunkie »

>Hello SkiJunkie, first of all, nice to meet you and
>congratulations for your superb Tool/Game. Let me
>make absolutly clear that i fully understand that you
>are not Microsoft or something, so dont take any
>critizism personal or something.

I don't take anything personally. :-)

>Is Games Workshop aware of the existance of your
>Client ? would they be willing to pick up you and
>your project ?

I do not believe The company as an entity is aware of my client. There are a few people there that have seen my game I think. I don't think they would be willing to pick up my project. I think that the bottom line is they want to sell mini's and a computer game doesn't help them do that. Doesn't bother me as this is just a project I do for fun.

>I was wondering if it would be possible to split your program
>in 2 Modes, Namely "Official Match" and "House Rules Match".
>Perhaps you could add some kind of interface or editable file
>that allows customized rules and Teams.

Other adding a mode that allows free movement and selection like the IRC Client or the PBeM tool I don't see how customized rules will work. I wouldn't even begin to think about a mode like this until everything else I want to do is implemented.

>I am more interested in the "Official Match" Mode. This
>would be playing a game of Blood Bowl, using the only
>Official Rulebook, Teams, Team Rosters and Reference
>Sheets.
>I pointed out the "Rules must be set in Stone for World
>Wide Competitive Play" Argument earlier, and i stick to
>that opinion. People will play someone online, whom
>they never met before and can only communicate via
>a chat client, this is not the environment for unclear or
>customized rules.

I really don't see my client being used on such a world wide scale as far as leagues go. Even with the server that would manage the league rosters I see them as being privately run. For instance: I could run a league using my computer as the server and letting clients connect to it. I would manage who could join and such.

>As to the Team Roster, the best one should be the
>one to download from >Fanatics, and be supported
>and or updated the same way as the Living
>Rulebook and the Reference Sheets.

Unless those xls file can export to some type of regular text file I don't see it happening. I'm not up to learning how to decode or encode a binary xls file.

>The Java Blood Bowl Client should handle the Pre and
>Post Game Sequence as well, including Star Player
>Rolls, and update the Teams automatically, even
>adding some kind of protection to make cheat-editing
>harder. For Example one could only edit the document
>from within the Java Client to change Player Names.

There would have to be a central server managing the changes to prevent cheating. If the roster is a anytime edited and stored on the client then it is prone to cheating.

>So that way everything but a League or Ladder
>System reqired to play the Current LRB 1.1 Blood
>Bowl via the net would be provided, just the same
>way as if you were playing the Board Game.
>Lacking Servers for Ladder play which is not realistic
>unless Games Workshop actually provides a server,
>i am sure the fans here would get along by emailing
>their results, as they do now already.

Like I said I don't see my client being used on such a scale. More like private leagues that have their own league server. I don't see GW ever providing a way to play in the league without the board and the minis. They want their monies. :-)

>Some might say they want to play their Online Team Offline
>as well, that would in my opinion only be possible in house
>Rules Mode. If anyone knows what i mean its like open and
>closed Battle.net

I see the client still being able to play off server games by using local rosters. At startup they would decide to play the team off the league server or use local file. Using local file would of course not affect their league roster.

>Is it clear what i mean ? meet online and play just as
>if you took the Boardgame to a friend in an other town.

I under stand what you mean, but I don't see GW buying into it.

>If THAT version of Java Bowl is availiable, i was willing to
>pay for it (shareware/freeware) and would actively try to
>push the thing towards improved Interface, Graphics,
>Sound and Presentation. 3 D is absolutely not required,
>but some kind of animation would be desirable.

I don't think GW will ever make this game (the version you are looking for or any other version) Especially after their failed attempt. My game may one day reach that point....maybe. Just depend on when I get to work on it and what I feel like adding to it. I would never dream of trying to charge for it though. I don't want the responsibilty of paying customers, and I don't want to go near the copyright infringements that would cause.

Honestly, I'd rather play the board version myself. I started writing and using this version because I can never find the time to get with my friends for a game. We don't even really have a league, we just play now and then and update the rosters ourselves. But it is fun to work on....most of the time. :-)

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Post by christer »

Oh.. While we're at the feature request part of the discussion.. I would really like it if you made the program like 30 pixels shorter. The way it is now, I'm forced to hide the start menu and move the window so that the title bar moves off the screen.. ;)

Don't ask me how this should be done though.. :) Perhaps move some stuff around?

Another thing I'd like to see is to have the "active" player marked in some way when your opponent is moving. It's hard to see what happens from time to time..

And finally, a superimposed player number on top of the players, so that you can locate your lineman #6 quickly...

-- Christer

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Toby

Post by Toby »

Well i had a major discussion where i was basically saying, either Games Workshop does a version Of Blood Bowl that is of the Same Quality as Warcraft 3 or Blood Bowl is dead, dead at its current Level.

I explained from my experience from Plaing Starcraft on "pro" Level but i was fighting windmills.

Especially my unchanged opinion that (if desinged by Blizard Entertainment for example) Online Blood Bowl could sell 5.000.000 Copies + like Starcraft did. That is because the Game has an unmatched Brilliance of changing Playing Pieces on a Strategy Game.

OK that was a brief recap on my mission impossible on this board so far :D

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Post by SkiJunkie »

>I would really like it if you made the program like 30
>pixels shorter. The way it is now, I'm forced to hide
>the start menu and move the window so that the title
>bar moves off the screen..

You must be running at 1024x768. :-) I must confess I didn't even think of resolution when I started making the game. I run at 1152x864 so the screen doesn't take up the whole screen. After deciding to put it on the web I tried moving stuff around so it fits on 1024x768 and I barely made it, as you can see. The 2.4 release I actually had to add 5 pixels on the right side and bottom so people using XP can see it properly. 30 pixels is a lot believe it or not. :-)

>Another thing I'd like to see is to have the "active" player
>marked in some way when your opponent is moving. It's
>hard to see what happens from time to time..

You mean in net play when you are watching the opponent move. I'll look into that.

>And finally, a superimposed player number on top of the
>players, so that you can locate your lineman #6 quickly...

I played with that once and it was quite ugly. Maybe I'll add a button you can hold down to display the number and they go away when you release it.

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Post by christer »

30 pixels is a lot believe it or not.
Indeed it is.. You could probaly strip off a chunk off the blue border around the field though..

The best option (and ofcourse the hardest) would be to shave off 2-3 pixels on each square on the board. Hell, I'd even appreciate it if you simply were able to scale it down.. I distinctly remember that you can scale Icons in java.. Probably ugly, but I'd love the feature anyway.
I played with that once and it was quite ugly. Maybe I'll add a button you can hold down to display the number and they go away when you release it.
Very cool idea. You could even have the button toggle the letter and put the number there instead.. Would be very nice indeed.

-- Christer

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Post by Toby »

Toggles: P/N/G

P Position Icon = BO
N Number = #13
G Graphics Icon = OgreMorg.jpg



edit: i didnt get it

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Post by christer »

Toby,

The icons we're talking about are the ones on the field. You couldn't possibly display names on them without creating a mess on the board. You can only fit one or two characters into the icons.

-- Christer

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Post by christer »

SkiJunkie,

Found some minor issues with the client.

1. Post-match sequence can executed several times by "ending the turn".

2. The client doesn't update the .dat file correctly at the end of the game.

3. If you try to start a match with a filename pointing to a non-existing file, the game starts without any error messages. The team without a file is empty, and the setup fails (with a message claiming that you need 3 players on the LoS).

I'm seriously considering starting up a league that uses your client, but I need to make sure game reporting is possible in a nice and easy way.

Any chance the client could be modified to generate a "machine readable" format of the game result? html isn't too friendly in this respect... :)

Also. Not too sure if this already works, but it would be nice if you could specify a http-address instead of a filename.

-- Christer

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