Chaos Elves

[grep-v]

<pre>0-12: 5 3 4 9 Chaos Elf: G,A $70k</pre>
With easy access to Block + Dodge and AG 4 and AV 9 70K is about 20K too cheap. These guys will be maniacs at 16spps!

It's just a lineelf with MA-1 AV+1. So the worst I could say is that they are more resilient and thus have a better chance to "die" by age than by their opponents.

<pre>0-2: 5 3 4 9 Chaos Elf Thrower: Pass G,A,P $90k</pre>
Same as above. About 20K too cheap.

Same as above. Where did you get this 20K idea from?

<pre>0-2: 7 2 4 8 Chaos Elf Beastman: Horns, Catch G,A,Phys $80k</pre>
This is 80K? What formula are you using? At face value, assuming all skills were equal, yes. But all skills aren't equal are they? You have essentially taken away his ST characteristic to lower the price but added it back in for free. Horns and easy access to Blodge takes away any ill effect of ST 2. Give this guy Block + Dodge + Xtra Arms and you have one maniac catcher!

But still at STR 2 when getting blocked. BTW: your argumentation could be used to prove that beastmen have essentially STR4

<pre>0-4: 5 3 4 9 Chaos Elf Warrior: Block, Sure Feet G,A,Phys $100k</pre>
And you are just off the deep end here. This guy should be 120K at least. 6 spps gain him Dodge + Block and AG 4! Sheesh!

Is this repeating? Hello, same goes for ANY elf blitzer ....

Basically what you have made is a team where the thrower can easily pass (AG 4) to anyone on the team! MA 5, you say? Big whoop! He's impossible to take down, so it's no big deal if he has to take 2 or 3 turns to score. Can you imagine a cage of AV 9 Blodgers around an AG 4 Blodge ball carrier? Good God!

Do I miss something? Is this irony without smilies?

<pre>Big Guys: 1 Minotaur<br>Apoth: yes<br>Rerolls: $60k</pre>
Umm...60K is way too low for this team. Should be at least 70K or 80K if you don't get rid of all the AG 4, Blodge and AV 9.

Funny, the point I would reject most, the Big Guy, doesn't seem to bother you . The Big guy unbalances this team a little, it would do better without it.
About the "all the AG 4, Blodge and AV 9": if you can only defeat elves by "getting rid of them" especially those slow elves, well, then maybe your tactics needs a bit of an overhaul .
I see just slower, tougher elves. A new problem but not a too big one, as they are SLOOOOOW. Even dwarves could keep up with them and pound upon them. The AV9 makes player turnover less likely. That is the biggest strength. Maybe there should be more AV8 in this team. The pricing is almost ok though. What about splitting up the linemen into Blockers (same stats as your lineelves) and ordinary linemen (AV8, 60-65K). Also the thrower would be more fitting with MA6 AV8.

ciao

[ryani]

What I'm trying to say is that the reason the team is doing so well is that despite being priced fairly and having the right PH Power and Value, it lacks a true weakness. They do all things in BB well, Blocking, Throwing, Running, and Growing ... this is why they are doing so well in your league.

But I appreciate you showing the team ... it allows me to add at least one more guideline to the PH system ... at least one of the 4 gaming stats must be below 62.

I used that spreadsheet to analyze the team while I was creating them. I don't have any reason to make them overpowered--I'm not even playing them--and they were admitted to our league as the only team that seemed fun enough to add, against Khemri, Rotters, and a couple of other teams.

I think they're doing well in our league (and really, the sample size is very small to say either way) not because the team is particularily overpowered, but due to some nice luck on the part of one of the coaches (having your opponent concede their first match is a HUGE benefit to an elf-cost team), and because they are good coaches and they have been playing mostly against less good coaches.

If I was to alter this team, I'd take away the Minotaur, (which severely drops the Power rating of the team... I think that Wild Animal is overcosted by the spreadsheet) and change the Thrower to a 80k runner (5 3 4 9 Sure Hands). I might take the advice of one of the posters here and make him AV 8, like dwarf runners--he'd end up as 6 3 4 8 Sure Hands, then.

This team ends up like this:
Power = 70.32 Value = 43.73
Blocking = 64.06 Throwing = 72.08 Running = 66.93 Potential = 73.34

Or with 6 3 4 8 Sure Hands runners:
Power = 70.61 Value = 44.20
Blocking = 63.90 Throwing = 72.36 Running = 67.92 Potential = 73.72

-- ryan

[ryani]

<pre>0-12: 5 3 4 9 Chaos Elf: G,A $70k</pre>
With easy access to Block + Dodge and AG 4 and AV 9 70K is about 20K too cheap. These guys will be maniacs at 16spps!

Well, Dark Elves are generally considered the least powerful of the elf teams, mostly due to their slow speed, so I don't see how that is particularily scary. They're line-elves with +1 AV and -1 MA. Do you consider 16 spp dark elves to be maniacs? I don't--they're good, but any player with 16 spp can be good.

<pre>0-2: 5 3 4 9 Chaos Elf Thrower: Pass G,A,P $90k</pre>
Same as above. About 20K too cheap.

No way. Overcosted if anything.

<pre>0-2: 7 2 4 8 Chaos Elf Beastman: Horns, Catch G,A,Phys $80k</pre>
:o This is 80K? What formula are you using? At face value, assuming all skills were equal, yes. But all skills aren't equal are they? You have essentially taken away his ST characteristic to lower the price but added it back in for free. Horns and easy access to Blodge takes away any ill effect of ST 2. Give this guy Block + Dodge + Xtra Arms and you have one maniac catcher!

I'd say the easy access to Dauntless makes this guy much more powerful than your reasons. Plus, you only get two, and they're two of your six "speedy" guys--meaning that they're only as fast as the slowest skaven and wood elves.

<pre>0-4: 5 3 4 9 Chaos Elf Warrior: Block, Sure Feet G,A,Phys $100k</pre>
And you are just off the deep end here. This guy should be 120K at least. 6 spps gain him Dodge + Block and AG 4! Sheesh!
Basically what you have made is a team where the thrower can easily pass (AG 4) to anyone on the team! MA 5, you say? Big whoop! He's impossible to take down, so it's no big deal if he has to take 2 or 3 turns to score. Can you imagine a cage of AV 9 Blodgers around an AG 4 Blodge ball carrier? Good God!

I modeled him around Dark Elf blitzers (7 3 4 8 Block, and guess what, $100k). He moves 6.85 if you count his average chance of making Go For Its (a Dark Elf Blitzer can go 8.38--25/36 chance of making 2 GFIs * 2 + move 7). Plus he can NEVER move 8 or 9, which makes him slower than a human lineman in critical situations, and if you need him to move 7, you have over a 5% chance of causing a turnover which you can't reroll because you've already rerolled the move with Sure Feet.

Pretty much every complaint I've seen here could be easily applied to every other elf team. They ALL get blodge easy. Is AV 9 so powerful that it makes up for being so slow? I don't think it does--it's very easy to pressure the cage, especially on a team whose players are slow and have no natural access to Guard.

[duff]

It sounds like somthing actually different to play, (slower crunchier elves)
And a different weakness to the usual elf fagility related to cost.
Perhaps the weakness of slow speed would be hard to exploit given the ease of dodging and moving the ball.
Is there a fluff justification for the stat changes or are they just wearing heavy armor? (Horns is obviously a chaos thing of course)

[Circular_Logic]

The problem is, that those guys will be very hard to stop from scoring. The biggest problem on a strenght-team is, that a player can tie up your guys by putting them into a TZ. With all those AV9, the comparison to orcs come to my mind. They will be as tough as orcs on the pitch, but can dodge away from every opponent easily, and the have no problem with the ballhandling, another big problem of the tough teams.

[Darkson]

Add in the Physical access (Long legs anyone?) and I feel the team is slightly overpowered.

[ryani]

Is there a fluff justification for the stat changes or are they just wearing heavy armor? (Horns is obviously a chaos thing of course)

No, no real fluff behind them. I don't really know the Warhammer fluff very well. It was just a concept--a slow agility team. There's already slow, average, and fast hitting teams (dwarf, chaos, norse) and average and fast agility teams (DE/HE and WEs), but there's no slow agility team.

[ryani]

Add in the Physical access (Long legs anyone?) and I feel the team is slightly overpowered.

I was worried about that too, that's why only the position players get physical access--the linemen and throwers don't.

[NightDragon]

I'm intrigued Galak. With your system of rating teams who comes out very well and who is not so good? Or have GW got a perfect balance! My guess is that the running teams do quite well.