Possible BB2k1 Fouling changes

[GalakStarscraper]

Galak suggested the following change to fouling:
Possibility to add some punch back to fouling (which got hammered in BB2k1) consider the following: add back that Mighty Blow, Claw, and Razor Sharp Fangs can be used and change the ejection base to the following: Fouling with Dirty Player gives NO bonus to armour or injury anymore but is always a 6+ for the Referee roll (even under the eye), normal fouling is a 5+ ref roll base, fouling with any av/inj mods like MB, Claw, or RSF (even if you have Dirty Player) is a 4+ ref roll base. If you want to leave the IGEMOY system in the game have it add +1 to the referee roll for anything but a Dirty Player foul w/o av/inj mod skills. The other kicker to consider is to allow Dirty Player to be able to assist a foul even in an opponent TZ (ie make Dirty Player the flip side of the Guard skill on blocking). Several leagues have used this system for years. These changes and still not allowing SPPs for fouling would give fouling a little more punch without a ton of rules clutter or the return of the Dirty Player being the player on the team with the most SPPs.

I'm currently actively supporting this for a good way to change fouling to where its a part of the game again ... other than the Pixie team I haven't seen virtually any boots in the MBBL2 or the MBBL. I agree with a little choking back of fouling rules from 3rd but they seem to have been wiped out.

No one has yet shot this bear dead, so allow me. This is a terrible idea for one key reason: injuries will belong entirely to Strength-based teams. There won't be any way to take that star Orc Blitzer out of the game without Claw, RSC, or Mighty Blow.

Bad, bad, bad idea.

-Chet

Huh? Injuries will belong entirely to Strength based teams .... they will??? How??? If they use any of their modifiers its a 4+ roll without the eye and a 3+ with it for ejection ... that's a heck of a chance to get thrown out. Since the players with these modifiers tend to be fairly valuable ... you'd have to REALLY, REALLY want to get rid of the opposing player to use the mods.

Also if I have Dirty Player than I can lend assists or perform IGMEOY-free fouling ... and DP is a General skill so virtually ANY team can have this advantage.

Chet, you're one of the most logicial guys I know, but I'm completely baffled here by your comments on how this is a "bad, bad, bad idea". Could you give me more info please as to why the Smeborg proposal won't work?

Galak

[Acerak]

Possibility to add some punch back to fouling (which got hammered in BB2k1) consider the following: add back that Mighty Blow, Claw, and Razor Sharp Fangs can be used and change the ejection base to the following: Fouling with Dirty Player gives NO bonus to armour or injury anymore but is always a 6+ for the Referee roll (even under the eye), normal fouling is a 5+ ref roll base, fouling with any av/inj mods like MB, Claw, or RSF (even if you have Dirty Player) is a 4+ ref roll base. If you want to leave the IGEMOY system in the game have it add +1 to the referee roll for anything but a Dirty Player foul w/o av/inj mod skills. The other kicker to consider is to allow Dirty Player to be able to assist a foul even in an opponent TZ (ie make Dirty Player the flip side of the Guard skill on blocking). Several leagues have used this system for years. These changes and still not allowing SPPs for fouling would give fouling a little more punch without a ton of rules clutter or the return of the Dirty Player being the player on the team with the most SPPs.

Ok. Here's why this won't work. By "work" I mean that it won't "add some punch back to fouling."

1. FOULS GET WEAKER.

Remember, combos still aren't allowed to the same die roll. DP is currently +2 OR +2, so unless you have Claw AND RSC, your fouls are all weaker than they are currently:

* MB: +1 OR +1
* Claw: +2 AND +0 (not as flexible)
* RSC: +0 AND +2 (not as flexible)
* Claw AND RSC: +2 AND +2

That last combo belongs only to Skaven and Chaos teams, so saying it adds punch is misleading, because it adds punch for only two teams.

2. EJECTION RATES GO UP.

Look, the basic foul here is 5+, which is worse than it is now. And let's quote Smeborg again:

fouling with any av/inj mods like MB, Claw, or RSF (even if you have Dirty Player) is a 4+ ref roll base

So the fouls are weaker (see #1) and the ejection rate is just as bad with the eye on you. Again, this doesn't "add punch" to fouling; it takes punch away.

You could modify this suggestion and say that a DP is going to get caught on a 6 all the time, every time. But now DP is a separate mod for the ref roll instead of the "good at fouling" skill. That's change for change's sake, IMO, given that these first two points make fouling worse instead of better. And it's also more complicated than what's currently on the table.

3. NON-STRENGTH TEAMS ARE GOING TO TAKE ALL THE FOULING CASUALTIES WITHOUT DISHING THEM OUT.

Suppose we make these changes and I'm playing Elves. In the old days, I could grab a DP and get +2 to either the AV roll or the injury roll for my fouled opponent. Now I have nothing, because I can't foul without blowing a doubles roll on MB.

If you don't see the problem here, let me restate it:

I have to use a doubles roll to create a fouler.

Strength-based players are not going to have this problem. A team like Dwarfs can simply load up on MB, use it on blocks as normal, and still use it on fouls. Sure, the Dwarf fouls are weaker than they were when the players could take DP, but the Dwarf players are better, because they have added flexibility and don't have to spend a skill slot to be an exclusive fouler.

Ok, so the Elves can always take this new DP, right? Right, the one that lets them foul on a 6...which is what they'll be doing most of the time against Orcs, Dwarfs, Chaos, and Skaven, because the other team will always be under the eye.

This also creates a bad situation when the foulers are the blitzers and BOBs instead of the lineshmucks. If you're playing Humans and you need a foul, you're going to send in your Blitzer. If you hesitate and fail to throw the foul, then the new rule has made fouling less likely; even if you foul with MB, it's less powerful; and even then, it's more likely to be caught.

-----

This dog just don't hunt. Let me phrase this rule another way, and you can tell me what you think of it:

"Let's remove DP entirely and just let MB, Claw, and RSC affect fouls again. Oh, and to compensate, we'll add a skill that allows you to get ejected only on a roll of 6."

This idea doesn't even do what Smeborg thinks it's doing. It's bad, bad, bad.

-Chet

Edited for some typos and clarification.

[Haar]

What about leaving fouling the way it is now, but giving SPPs to a successful fouler? My Chaos team doesn't foul much nowadays, but might risk the ref's wrath if 2 points were on the line.

[Eje]

I think that fouling rules are good now. At 3rd Ed. was easiest way to kill players, now it´s only the option when no more chance.
Fouling isn´t it an indiscriminate action like before.

[TiMuN]

I'm with Haar on this ... it's ok to all the penalty rolls, the IGMEOY thing and that the +2 is only applied to armour roll OR injury .. but come on! under such circumstances .. grant the poor guy some SPP just for risking!

[Longshot]

I agree with Galak : the fouling system MUST change.
They are too many rules on it. clear them to less simple rules.
that is my humble opinion.

[Dangerous Dave]

There is now a poll - so you can vote on whether you should get 2 SPPs for fouling:-

viewtopic.php?t=946

Question for Longshot:-


You say:-

I agree with Galak : the fouling system MUST change.
They are too many rules on it. clear them to less simple rules.
that is my humble opinion.


OK I'm all for making the rules as simple as possible. However, the rule changes Galak is supporting makes them more complicated - different referee rolls depending on skills etc. IMO the Fouling rules are currently pretty simple. Assists follow the same rules as blocking - the only changes are the IGMEOY counter and Guard doesn't work. Personally I feel that the fouling rules are fine as they stand. If you changed them to be exactly like blocking with no ref roll, then there would be a foul every turn - IMO this would make the game less strategic and less fun.

If you can come up with a simpler set of fouling rules - post them. I for one would be happy to see them.



Dave

[Acerak]

I think fouling suffers from one (and only one) flaw at the moment, and that's tied to the IGMEOY counter.

In the old days, fouling wasn't tactical; it was strategic. You fouled every turn regardless of the situation because it was easy. You could win games and games based entirely on your ability to foul the other guy into submission. Sure, you had to take out his DP, too, but once it was done, you went to town. (B-O-R-I-N-G!)

In Fourth Edition, the effect of the IGMEOY counter (getting caught unless you rolled doubles) was so overwhelming that "sitting on the counter" became the strategy du jour. It didn't matter what game you played, you could sit on the counter and dictate the opponent's tactics for the game because fouling was worthless for him.

In the 2K1 rule set, this has been improved a bit, but I've seen plenty of games and have come to recognize that "sitting on the IGMEOY counter" is still seen as a good strategy. It's still not tactical, because the odds are loaded against the other team when they go to foul with the eye on them.

Why? Because the odds of getting caught are higher than the odds of taking the opponent out of the game. DP is a great skill to have, but again, the odds don't seem to change based on the power of the foul. I think the odds of getting caught need to be tuned just a bit...just enough that the odds of getting caught go up with the odds of taking out the opponent, with a nod toward the ref having his eye on the other team.

This post is getting long, so I'll put a suggestion together in another message.

-Chet

[Acerak]

Ok. Here's what I'd like to see happen to fouling.

REF ROLL
The first tweak involves the Ref Roll. Currently, it's a 6+/4+ success rate. This handles only the Eye, doing nothing to account for DP. This also means that if you don't have a DP, it's always worthless to foul with the Eye on you, which is less than ideal, in my opinion. If you commit a dirty foul, you should attract more attention. If the ref is watching, you should attract more attention. And the Ref Roll should function with modifiers, like any other die roll in the game.

So here's what I suggest: The basic Ref Roll is always a 6+ to catch the fouler. Add the mods below as they apply:

Code: Select all

Fouling team is under the Eye................+1
Fouling player used the Dirty Player skill...+1

So this is pretty simple: roll a die and add the mods (max of +2). Here are the possible scenarios for getting caught:

* No Eye, no DP: 6+
* Eye, no DP: 5+
* No Eye, DP: 5+
* Eye, DP: 4+

What changes? Well, only two things change. First, if you foul with a DP without the Eye, your odds of getting caught are 2/6 instead of 1/6. I think this is plenty fair, given that you have good odds of causing an injury. Second, if you foul under the Eye but you DON'T use DP - in other words, if some yob tries to get in an unmodified foul when the ref is paying a bit of extra attention to his team - then the odds of getting caught are 2/6 instead of 3/6.

(No Eye, no DP) doesn't change; it's a standard foul. (Eye, DP) doesn't change, either; 50% is about right. This change balances DP and the Eye properly, IMO, de-emphasizing one (the Eye) while re-emphasizing the other (DP).

GET THE REF
Forget the bit about "can't get caught," forget the bit about adding hard-to-word mods to the IGMEOY counter. Just say that the replacement ref is more than eager to listen to your team's complaints, so you get a +2 bonus to your Argue the Call rolls. This means you can get away with a foul half the time, even if you get caught. This makes GtR less of a game-breaker, which is a common complaint leveled against it.

HANDICAP TABLE
I've been thinking about Tom's suggested changes, and here's what I'd like to suggest.

* Under Scrutiny: The opposing team is coming under the eye of NAF officials, who have instructed their refs to be more strict this game. You may add +1 to all Ref Rolls made against the opposing team. In addition, the opposing team may not use any Secret Weapons this match.

* Grudge Match: Several of your players have had it up to here with the sassy talk coming from the opposing team's dressing room, and are angry enough to do something low about it! D3 random players get the Dirty Player skill for this match.

* Biased Referee: The referee has a bone to pick with the opposing team, and is more than willing to lend his ear to your cause. You may add +2 to your Argue the Call rolls this game.

As an alternate BR card, I suggest that the opposing team not be allowed to Argue the Call at all, but the wording above creates the least conflict with other rules in the game.

-----

I think that modifications to those three areas would make fouling just about perfect. DP would be put in its place as an effective but attention-getting tool, the Eye and Get The Ref would be scaled back as Major Players, and the Handicap table results would no longer conflict with the rest of the game mechanics.

So, sound off!

-Chet

[Acerak]

Oh! I forgot to add something...

Remember how some of the old cards said "The effects are cancelled if the opposing team's fans get the ref"? Stuff like that? Well, rules that reference other rules aren't ideal, really, as they cause more clutter than they're worth. So I suggest re-writing GtR so the opposing team's fans beat up the ref rather than kill him. That way, no one will ask whether Biased Referee still applies after the other team gets the ref, etc. It's much cleaner that way.

Cheers!

-Chet

[Deathwing]

Quick question: Using DP after the dice roll as per 2k1?
So you can stick the boot in, decide to use DP to break armour if necessary..if not, roll injury and decide whether to use DP to add +2 to the injury?
I'd foul every turn with a DP (5+ s/o roll with the eye) and only reduce it to a 4+ when it's worth it. Assuming he stays on the field, he goes back to a 5+ unless I decide to add the +2 again?
I'd use him every turn under those rules and only use the DP skill on injury if worthwhile, and never armour unless the situation really demanded it. I'd also have multiple DP's.
So my initial reaction is that it goes too far under the current decide skill use after the dice roll system. Could be wrong though...

[Acerak]

Quick question: Using DP after the dice roll as per 2k1?

Correct.

So you can stick the boot in, decide to use DP to break armour if necessary..if not, roll injury and decide whether to use DP to add +2 to the injury?

Correct.

I'd foul every turn with a DP (5+ s/o roll with the eye) and only reduce it to a 4+ when it's worth it. Assuming he stays on the field, he goes back to a 5+ unless I decide to add the +2 again?

I think you're confusing the issue - well, you've certainly confused me, at any rate, so I think some explanation is in order!

Scenario #1: The ref is not watching your team at the moment. You decide to foul with a Dirty Player.

The normal Ref Roll is 6+ to send your player off. If you don't use the DP skill on the foul, the opponent rolls a D6 with a +0 modifier. He needs a 6 to eject your player. If you do use the DP skill, however, the opponent rolls a D6 with a +1 modifier. He needs a 5 or 6 to eject your player.

Scenario #2: The ref is watching your team this turn. You decide to foul with a Dirty Player.

The normal Ref Roll is 6+ to send your player off, but because the ref is watching your team, the opposing coach can add +1 to his Ref Roll after your foul.

If you don't use the DP skill on the foul, the opponent rolls a D6 with a +1 modifier. He needs a 5 or 6 to eject your player. If you do use the DP skill, however, the opponent rolls a D6 with a +2 modifier. He needs a 4, 5, or 6 to eject your player.

Analysis: In the first scenario, fouling is the same as it is now unless you foul with a DP, in which case it got more difficult. In the second scenario, fouling is just as difficult with DP, but less so if you don't use any skills on the foul.

So, let's get back to what you'd do.

I'd use him every turn under those rules and only use the DP skill on injury if worthwhile, and never armour unless the situation really demanded it. I'd also have multiple DP's.

Right. Now for the moment, assume that most people who foul have multiple DPs. (I do, or I aim for it as soon as possible.) No change there.

So you'd foul every turn. Assuming you didn't use DP, the foul gets caught every 3 turns. But without using DP, you don't have a 1/3 chance of getting the other player out of the game! Sure, you have a 5/12 chance of getting him off the pitch with the INJ roll, but you're assuming a clean AV break every time. That's just not mathematically possible. So the odds will always sit against you if you foul every turn. It's just that without skills coming into play, they won't be as prohibitive as they are now.

Which is part of the point, really. If you don't take DP, why should you be 50/50 to get thrown out just for tossing one boot at the opposing coach?

Right, you shouldn't. In today's game, you better have a DP to foul, because once you throw one, you're going to get caught at a ridiculous rate. So if you stick the foot in again, better make sure it's worthwhile, right?

Truth is, if you foul repeatedly under this rule without DP, you're going to lose players faster than you can eliminate your opponent. The difference? You won't lose them at a rate that ensures that you should never foul without the DP, which is what the current 4+ Ref Roll does. It simply doesn't discriminate based on the power level of the foul. And without DPs, fouls aren't as powerful as they used to be because of the reduced assists.

So my initial reaction is that it goes too far under the current decide skill use after the dice roll system. Could be wrong though...

I don't think so, if only because it allows you to throw safer fouls without skills. Whether the die mods come before or after the roll doesn't matter - if you didn't use DP, there's no need to penalize you for it. If you did, though, it's an extra +1 for blatancy. No worse than before if the Eye is on you, but definitely worse than before when you start fouling, because the first DP foul is 5+ to get caught even if the ref isn't watching.

Hope this clears things up.

-Chet

[Acerak]

Another point that's submerged somewhere in that response: when you throw your first foul with DP, you're at a penalty if you use the skill. That's a leg up from today, when the first DP foul has to be thrown ASAP because the odds of getting caught are only 1/6.

-Chet

[Haar]

I like the proposed rules. They make fouling just a little bit easier, which is important for strength teams like Chaos. When Chaos plays against elfs, they frequently need to take players off the pitch, and at one block (blitz) per turn, you probably aren't going to get that. Fouling was the "secret weapon" for my strength team under 3e rules, and has been considerably downgraded. The 1-2 turn score secret weapon of those dodgy teams hasn't changed, and so the balance of the league has shifted in favor of the dodgers a bit. So much so that I am retiring my Chaos team in favor of a DE one.

[Deathwing]

I guess my point was that I'd take more DPs and use them more often, and I think an awful lot of coaches would do the same. Would fouling then become over prevelant in the game? I guess this is a 'point of view' call, personally I'm happy enough with fouling as it stands. It's a tricky balance to make it a more effective tactic without going back to making it game strategy, which sucked big time.