Rat Ogre, agility

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Asperon Thorn
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Post by Asperon Thorn »

Zombie wrote:
Dark Lord wrote:I gotta agree.
Hell I'd give him the ball on offense if I was playing a team that would have trouble breaking players free for the assists. Start him behind the line, give him the ball and let him break on through.
Break free for assists? You've never played skaven, have you? You don't put your players next to opponents on purpose when you play skaven, so there's nothing to "break free" of. On a dwarf team, i would agree with your statement.
I don't know about that. Once you get block on those Linerats, they are equal to Norse in Hitting power, And if you get some Physical mutations they are even better. That team with 'Biff' on it has a positive 81 casualty difference over 41 games. That is almost 2 Cas/game more than his opponents.

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Zombie
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Post by Zombie »

I agree that skaven can hit hard, but the problem is that they can't stand being hit, because of AV7 and no access to dodge except on the ST2 gutter runners. You don't leave half your team next to the opposition just to keep them from moving. If you do, you'll pay harshly.

Also, linerats are usually the slowest advancing linemen in the game, because the gutter runners' AG4, MA9 and access to agility means that it's hard for anyone else to pick up TDs. If you try to spread SPPs around, your second targets are storm vermins, who also have trouble advancing but are much more crucial. This means that it takes a while for linerats to even have block, unless they get lucky with MVPs.

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Asperon Thorn
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Post by Asperon Thorn »

I think you are forgetting the crucial MA7 which allows for some pretty spectactular touchdowns. Granted they can't dodge as well as others, and thier AV is weak, but I don't know how you can say that they are harder to advance. An AG 4 gutter runner can be used to move the ball around until one of the MA 7 linerats is in scoring position.

Storm Vermin have no problems causing casualties, as they have both access to Str, and Physical, so have no need to score. They are faster than beastmen, start with block, and have AV8.

In summary, any player with MA 7 is a scoring threat, and therefore has no problems getting SPP's.

Of course, all that is moot. The original statement "a team that can't break free for assists," could also mean, having linerats one space away, yet blocking thier ability to move farther than that. A spiderweb of tacklezones, if you will. As long as they can't get to the Rat Ogre to lend more than 3 or 4 assists, then the statement holds true.

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Post by Matsu »

Here are the 2 competing thoughts in my mind -

1. I agree with the guys that say that putting agility on the RO makes him scarier - It definitely adds an intimidation factor. Additionally, he really would be great for grabbing the ball defensively.

2. Offensively, why would you consider giving him the ball? Are you having trouble with SCORING as a skaven team? You shouldn't need any help on offense.

So, I think the question to ask is this: Do you need more help taking out dodgers or getting your hands on the ball? Personally, I'd take the +1 AG because I want to get my hands on the ball more often.

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Post by Dark Lord (retired) »

Zombie wrote:
Dark Lord wrote:I gotta agree.
Hell I'd give him the ball on offense if I was playing a team that would have trouble breaking players free for the assists. Start him behind the line, give him the ball and let him break on through.
Break free for assists? You've never played skaven, have you? You don't put your players next to opponents on purpose when you play skaven, so there's nothing to "break free" of. On a dwarf team, i would agree with your statement.
I meant that if I was playing against a team that had trouble breaking free to lay assists on the Rat Ogre.
As for your discussion of a totally irrelevant fact...
Zombie wrote:I agree that skaven can hit hard, but the problem is that they can't stand being hit, because of AV7 and no access to dodge except on the ST2 gutter runners. You don't leave half your team next to the opposition just to keep them from moving. If you do, you'll pay harshly.
And the other guy just graciously allows you to not stand next him, never lays any TZ on your guys and never forces you to make dodges?

Do you even play this game?

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Post by Cervidal »

Now why do you have to be inflammitory like that? It's like you're trying to pick a fight.

Zombie's point is that you are never going to use your Linerats as speed bumps like a Human, Orc, or Undead team tends to use their linemen. Most teams that hit hard have little problem with purposefully leaving their players adjacent to opposing players in a favorable set up. With Skaven and their AG 3, AV 7, there is no favorable time to leave one of them standing next to someone at the end of your turn.

I think. That's how I read it, anyways.

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Post by Dark Lord (retired) »

Cervidal wrote:Now why do you have to be inflammitory like that? It's like you're trying to pick a fight.
Actually I was repeating Zombie attitude, "You've never played skaven, have you?"
Cervidal wrote:Zombie's point is that you are never going to use your Linerats as speed bumps like a Human, Orc, or Undead team tends to use their linemen. Most teams that hit hard have little problem with purposefully leaving their players adjacent to opposing players in a favorable set up. With Skaven and their AG 3, AV 7, there is no favorable time to leave one of them standing next to someone at the end of your turn.

I think. That's how I read it, anyways.
Actually he said that..."You don't put your players next to opponents on purpose when you play skaven, so there's nothing to "break free" of. "
Then..."You don't leave half your team next to the opposition just to keep them from moving. If you do, you'll pay harshly."

Which wasn't my point but still leaves me wondering how he puts 3 players on the line without putting them in TZs. How does he play defense without other players laying TZs on his linerats and how on Earth he keeps them out of TZs without ever "breaking free". Sounds like fshing for a fight to me.

And he followed all this by saying..."Also, linerats are usually the slowest advancing linemen in the game, because the gutter runners' AG4, MA9 and access to agility means that it's hard for anyone else to pick up TDs."

He is obviously talking crap. Skaven linemen don't progress any slower than Norse linemen, Amazon Linewomen, Human linemen or Dwarf linemen.
Follow that up with his statement that he magically somehow never has his skaven linemen in a TZ and I think my question was more than fair.

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Post by Zombie »

Asperon Thorn wrote:I think you are forgetting the crucial MA7 which allows for some pretty spectactular touchdowns. Granted they can't dodge as well as others, and thier AV is weak, but I don't know how you can say that they are harder to advance. An AG 4 gutter runner can be used to move the ball around until one of the MA 7 linerats is in scoring position.

Storm Vermin have no problems causing casualties, as they have both access to Str, and Physical, so have no need to score. They are faster than beastmen, start with block, and have AV8.

In summary, any player with MA 7 is a scoring threat, and therefore has no problems getting SPP's.
I'm not forgetting anything. I've played skaven many times, and seen them played even more often. It's very difficult to advance linerats, and they usually get skills at a slower rate than longbeards and black orcs.
Asperon Thorn wrote:Of course, all that is moot. The original statement "a team that can't break free for assists," could also mean, having linerats one space away, yet blocking thier ability to move farther than that. A spiderweb of tacklezones, if you will. As long as they can't get to the Rat Ogre to lend more than 3 or 4 assists, then the statement holds true.
Now this, i can agree with.

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Post by Zombie »

Dark Lord wrote:I meant that if I was playing against a team that had trouble breaking free to lay assists on the Rat Ogre.

And the other guy just graciously allows you to not stand next him, never lays any TZ on your guys and never forces you to make dodges?
It seems like you didn't understand my comment at all. I'm not saying that the opponent won't put tackle zones on you when you play skaven. Of course he will, especially on your linerats. What i'm saying is that skaven don't voluntarily put tackle zones on opponents just to slow them down, that's suicide for them. So the opponent has nothing to "break free" of.

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Post by Zombie »

Dark Lord wrote:Skaven linemen don't progress any slower than Norse linemen, Amazon Linewomen, Human linemen or Dwarf linemen.
Actually, they progress slower than any of those.

Amazon linewomen and norse linemen actually progress very fast, because they're almost as good at scoring as catchers and blitzers from those races. In the amazon team i played, the linewomen had more SPPs than the throwers or blitzers, and almost as many as the catchers. Human linemen have a harder time, because human catchers are so much better at scoring that human linemen almost never get the chance to try. As for longbeards, they advance slowly and never score any TDs, but with block, AV9 and thick skull, you can leave them standing next to opponents, which means more blocks for you, and with block and tackle, more of those blocks will result in casualties.

Skaven linerats are better scorers than any of those other linemen, but still score less often (except for the longbeards of course), because it's so much easier to score with an AG4, MA9, dodge gutter runner. It's not just about the player's stats; it's also about what other options you have.

This is something that can only be understood by playing skaven, hence my comment. I have never seen a skaven team with linerats that were anywhere near the level of development of the other players on the team, and i have never been able to do it myself, even though i tried. Gutter runners are just way too good and get the large part of the TDs no matter how hard you try otherwise. This is more true for skaven than for any other team because this is the only team that has AG4 players, but not across the board.

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Post by Dark Lord (retired) »

Which is completely false.

The cheap price, high movement and normal AG of linerats makes them ideal for that purpose. IN fact, my brother was a master of the "swarm" defense.

And anyway, why wouldn't you stop players from laying TZs of your Rat Ogre? Do you like it when he throws a defender's choice blitz first thing? I don't. I think while you are busy running away, a normal coach would move in on your AG 4 RO. Personally, I'd rather the 50K AG 3 player with no SPPs went down.

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Post by Zombie »

Wow, what an argumentator you are. I'm baffled.

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Post by Dark Lord (retired) »

Gee I hit the button by mistake and then went back to edit. You must be sitting and waiting for a response. Oh no, not you, you don't "bait and wait" do you? :lol:

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Post by Dark Lord (retired) »

Zombie wrote:Wow, what an argumentator you are. I'm baffled.
By the way, that's not a word. Learn to speak English please. It is the language of this board.

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Post by Dark Lord (retired) »

Zombie wrote:Skaven linerats are better scorers than any of those other linemen, but still score less often (except for the longbeards of course), because it's so much easier to score with an AG4, MA9, dodge gutter runner. It's not just about the player's stats; it's also about what other options you have.
I've seen quite a few coaches score with other players and just use the Gutter Runners as decoys. I've also never seen any linemen advanced further than the rest of the players on the team. Skaven or otherwise. Where are all these Norse linemen that are so developed and kick ass?
Like I said, it's very silly to try to dodge linerats away (except that you said you don't do that) so they don't get hurt while you leave your AG 4 big guy open for attack.
I understand what you are saying; I just think it's B.S. If you don't stop your opponent from harassing your Wild Animal you are going to have a sad time with him.

I've been playing this game longer than you and I have played every team and seen loads of different strategies and I have never seen anything that you suggest ever be successful. Especially to the degree you claim it to be.

tell me, how do you stop your Rat Ogre from throwing defender's choice blocks at the beginning of every turn?

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