Why Stand Firm?

[Mortalman]

I wouldn't take sidestep instead of stand firm, but I am increasingly tempted to give my blockers dodge if they roll a double. At first I thought that it would be better to make sure they couldn't be pushed away, and also if they ever had to dodge there'd be no risk! But gradually I've come to think that it might be better to stay on your feet more (ie get dodge) than stand firm. Also if you ever really had to dodge away with a black orc, he must be the only player that can get into the right place or you'd move someone else, so dodge might be your only chance - not falling over is all very well but doesn't help you make the dodge any so could cost you TDs in a scrape.

[Mirascael]

I think Stand Firm is better than Side Step.
It's annoying if your Shadow-Wardancer has to sidestep away from the ball carrier (and this happens qiute often, you can't help it).
It's annoying if your Side Stepper is pushed out (not a rare occurence).
It's annoying if your Guard player must sidestep away from the square where he is needed.

But we are talking about troll slayers here, so at least two of your three points lose significance... BTW: How does your wardancer gain stand firm???

Same should apply for Troll Slayers who are destined by default to do their dirty job at the sideline.
I wished my Wardancers could get Stand Firm. I'd probably take it over Side Step. And the latter is the 1st or 2nd skill my Wardancers get normally (sometimes 3rd in new teams though).

[noodle]

Stand firm isn't BETTER than sidestep, just different and useful in different situations. Sidestep is more useful for catchers while stand firm is more useful for blockers...

(Kinda makes you wonder why one's an agility skill and the other a strength trait )

sidestep is immensely useful if you are running towards the opponent's end zone... or are next to it... you can just get closer!

[DoubleSkulls]

Reasons why Stand Firm is better

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__X
_B_
___

X = my player
B = ball carrier

If my player has sidestep all my opponent has to do to get the TZ off the ball carrier is this

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_bX
_Bb
___

b = Ball Carrier's team mates.

If one of them blitzes a push is enough to clear the TZ. SF players have to be knocked over.

Also consider this

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b_X_a
_B__
__b

a = another ball carrier's team mate
Lets say a runs in and blitzes X. Then with SS the only places I can move are places where I can get hit again, increasing the chances I get knocked over.

This is my mind makes the tactical uses of SS and SF very similar in power. One allows you to choose where you go when pushed, one allows you to choose when you move.

If you accept they are relatively equal then SFs effect on dodging just elevates it above SS - even on AG2 players.

[noodle]

But there are many exanmples (none of which I can be bothered to post) where having sidestep is better than having stand firm. It depends on the specific situation, and how you are playing the player with the skill - i.e. what is his role...

I don't think you can say "stand firm is BETTER than sidestep" any more than you can say "dodge is better than block"

etc....

(IMO )

[Zombie]

Stand firm isn't BETTER than sidestep, just different and useful in different situations. Sidestep is more useful for catchers while stand firm is more useful for blockers...

Stand firm is 10 times more useful than side step for a catcher, if only for the part about never failing a dodge.

[DoubleSkulls]

But there are many exanmples (none of which I can be bothered to post) where having sidestep is better than having stand firm.

But a lot of people were ignoring the other case. Sometimes not moving at all is more benefical.

As Zombie said, an inability to fail dodges makes SF much better than SS. For push backs they are about equal.

[MickeX]

Lets say a runs in and blitzes X. Then with SS the only places I can move are places where I can get hit again, increasing the chances I get knocked over.

Yep, but you can just as well use an example where SS prevents the other team from making several blocks against your players, where SF does not.

Or, you can use the example that a player close to the opponents ballcarrier could use SS to put a TZ on him. SS is a great way of moving about without having to dodge.

SS and SF are simply different. I'd say it's often a hard choice.

Micke

[Athanasius]

I agree that in many situations, Stand Firm is better than Side Step (catchers, Longbeards, Runners). I claim that Side Step is better for Troll Slayers because it helps them put the smack on. For Troll Slayers, the benefits of Side Step are:

1) You can choose a location where the opponent must follow up or leave you free from TZs, allowing you to Blitz without Dodging first. With Stand Firm, you are guaranteed to be next to someone on your turn.
2) You can choose a location where it is very likely that you will be able to push another player off the pitch.
3) While Stand Firm will prevent a turnover on a failed dodge, that does not mean that you can dodge without risk. The only reason to Dodge with a Troll Slayer is to Blitz. A failed dodge at that point costs you your Blitz for the turn., even if it doesn't cause a turnover. With Dwarves, you will often be reduced to a single Block or two and a Blitz with which to clobber an opponent (esp elves), so you would be cutting your opportunity to do damage by half.
4) You won't find your Troll Slayer down on the sideline, with someone "hovering" over them. Often, an opponent will simply leave a lineman in place to force you to "waste" a Blitz just to get your Slayer in the clear, rather than hitting better targets elsewhere.
5) You can put your Slayer in a position to Block someone other than the player who hit him, very valuable when the Slayer is on the edge of an opponents cage and you are trying to work him in to the ball carrier.

Troll Slayers exist to hit people, period. Anything else is taking away from their mission in life. Side Step helps them hit people more effectively.

[Mortalman]

Small point I know, but SF also negates frenzy because unless you follow up you don't get to make the second block. Obviously it is usually Trollslayers doing the frenzying, but it would be useful if your attempt to nobble a Minotaur/Rat Ogre went pearshaped.

[Old Man Draco]

Small point I know, but SF also negates frenzy because unless you follow up you don't get to make the second block. Obviously it is usually Trollslayers doing the frenzying, but it would be useful if your attempt to nobble a Minotaur/Rat Ogre went pearshaped.

As I recall, the frenzy still counts, also against a stand firm player. The rules state that frenzy can be used on a push back result of the dice! the target does not actually have to move. There have been more questions about this and the answers were alle the same! So frenzy guys, keep on bashing those SF folks!

[Mortalman]

But surely the frenzy rules also say that the player must "follow up and throw another block" - I'm confused. Perhaps someone can post the link to the relevant rules thread.

[Deathwing]

But surely the frenzy rules also say that the player must "follow up and throw another block" - I'm confused. Perhaps someone can post the link to the relevant rules thread.

Skills and Traits, LRB 2.0 p34.

"Some skills refer to pushing a player back in order
to work. These skills will work as long as you roll a
push back on the Blocking dice."

Whether SF is used to actually prevent a player being pushed back or not, as long as a pushback is rolled then it counts as a pushback. So for example Strip Ball still works against a SF ball carrier who has had a pushback rolled against him.

[Zombie]

1) You can choose a location where the opponent must follow up or leave you free from TZs, allowing you to Blitz without Dodging first. With Stand Firm, you are guaranteed to be next to someone on your turn.

Which is exactly what you want. Remember, you said it yourself: troll slayer are there to hurt people, not to make some fancy blitzes. Your blitzers can do those. If you're next to an opponent, that's one more opponent you can hit on your next turn. Besides, if you really want to blitz, stand firm helps you more in this respect, by making dodging safe.

3) While Stand Firm will prevent a turnover on a failed dodge, that does not mean that you can dodge without risk. The only reason to Dodge with a Troll Slayer is to Blitz.

That's not true. Troll slayers sometimes dodge without declaring a blitz just because frenzy puts them in a situation where it's not safe to block.

A failed dodge at that point costs you your Blitz for the turn., even if it doesn't cause a turnover. With Dwarves, you will often be reduced to a single Block or two and a Blitz with which to clobber an opponent (esp elves), so you would be cutting your opportunity to do damage by half.

See point one above. If you want more opportunity to hurt, take stand firm.

4) You won't find your Troll Slayer down on the sideline, with someone "hovering" over them. Often, an opponent will simply leave a lineman in place to force you to "waste" a Blitz just to get your Slayer in the clear, rather than hitting better targets elsewhere.

Which is why you need stand firm to make dodging possible. Besides, if you start your troll slayer on the side line, i garanty a lineman won't be standing next to him, because he'll be too scared of the crowd.

5) You can put your Slayer in a position to Block someone other than the player who hit him, very valuable when the Slayer is on the edge of an opponents cage and you are trying to work him in to the ball carrier.

But if that situation happens, the opponent either won't block him, or will fill the open squares so that you have to choose a bad square to go to.

Troll Slayers exist to hit people, period. Anything else is taking away from their mission in life. Side Step helps them hit people more effectively.

See point 1 above. With stand firm, they can hit more people.

[Athanasius]

Ok.

1) You can choose a location where the opponent must follow up or leave you free from TZs, allowing you to Blitz without Dodging first. With Stand Firm, you are guaranteed to be next to someone on your turn.

Which is exactly what you want. Remember, you said it yourself: troll slayer are there to hurt people, not to make some fancy blitzes. Your blitzers can do those. If you're next to an opponent, that's one more opponent you can hit on your next turn. Besides, if you really want to blitz, stand firm helps you more in this respect, by making dodging safe.

If you want to hit the guy who blocked you, choose a square where you will still be next to him. You can choose to be in a position to block the guy hitting you or not. This is especially important when you get knocked down, since you can make your opponent choose to either follow up or leave you to stand up and move in the clear. If you get knocked down with Stand Firm, when you spend your 3 MV to stand up you must either Blitz the guy away, dodge with poor odds of success, or wait to get blocked down again next turn. And if you are throwing blitzes with your Blitzers, you aren't using your Troll Slayers. Blitzers are OK, but Troll Slayers are the ones who put the hurt on. And Stand Firm does not make Dodging safe during a Blitz, see my next point.

3) While Stand Firm will prevent a turnover on a failed dodge, that does not mean that you can dodge without risk. The only reason to Dodge with a Troll Slayer is to Blitz.

That's not true. Troll slayers sometimes dodge without declaring a blitz just because frenzy puts them in a situation where it's not safe to block.

This isn't 4th ed anymore. If you can't block safely, don't. You are not required to throw a block with Frenzy like you used to be. Also, a Troll Slayer has 1/3 of falling down (actually 11/36) on a 2 die against block, still better than his 1/2 of failing a dodge, and he has 1/9 chance to knock his opponent down as well. Like I said, the ONLY reason to dodge is to put the hurt elsewhere, otherwise your odds are better using a 2 die against block.

A failed dodge at that point costs you your Blitz for the turn., even if it doesn't cause a turnover. With Dwarves, you will often be reduced to a single Block or two and a Blitz with which to clobber an opponent (esp elves), so you would be cutting your opportunity to do damage by half.

See point one above. If you want more opportunity to hurt, take stand firm.

Wrong, for the reasons I already stated. If you want the block, choose a location you can block from. If you don't, choose a location to Blitz from. Besides, my point was that failing a Dodge with Stand Firm costs you that action, and if that action was a Blitz you are out your Blitz for the turn.

4) You won't find your Troll Slayer down on the sideline, with someone "hovering" over them. Often, an opponent will simply leave a lineman in place to force you to "waste" a Blitz just to get your Slayer in the clear, rather than hitting better targets elsewhere.

Which is why you need stand firm to make dodging possible. Besides, if you start your troll slayer on the side line, i garanty a lineman won't be standing next to him, because he'll be too scared of the crowd.

With or without Stand Firm, the odds of successfully dodging into a tackle zone are poor. With Stand Firm, the player stays where he is, penned on the sideline, waiting to get blocked to his butt on the opponents turn (though he won't go surfing, it is very likely he will fail an AV sooner or later). If you don't stand firm, you fall in the square you were moving to, which means you may be on your back but you are no longer penned in on the sideline.

5) You can put your Slayer in a position to Block someone other than the player who hit him, very valuable when the Slayer is on the edge of an opponents cage and you are trying to work him in to the ball carrier.

But if that situation happens, the opponent either won't block him, or will fill the open squares so that you have to choose a bad square to go to.

If I put my slayer next to one of his cage players, he either blocks him or gets crushed when my turn rolls around. Poor choice. On the other hand, if my opponent wants to invest 4 or 5 players to keep my Slayer from getting into his cage, I'll destroy him with the rest of my team. Either way, the mayhem caused by my Slayer is increased.

Troll Slayers exist to hit people, period. Anything else is taking away from their mission in life. Side Step helps them hit people more effectively.

See point 1 above. With stand firm, they can hit more people.

No, with Stand Firm, they can hit one guy repeatedly. With Side Step, they can position to hit several. Either way, one hit, but with Side Step you can often make that one hit against a ball carrier or skill position instead of wasting your premier hitter against the same lineman over and over again.