Are Chaos Dwarves too good? (Tournaments Only)

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:52 am

Given that the big hats are dominating the tournament scene at the moment do people think they are just too good in tournaments?

Do we need to tone them down? If so what do you think would work?

Odium Khan · Post by **Odium Khan** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:03 am

Make rerolls more expensive?

Valen · Post by **Valen** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:08 am

They do make fantastic torni teams, and league teams for that matter, but other than making re-rolls more expensive I am not sure what you could do.

Cervidal · Post by **Cervidal** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:15 am

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why they're such a great tournament team. Statistically, you would think Orcs or Humans would do as well, if not better.

I think this may simply be luck. In the long run, I don't think you will see Chaos Dwarves dominating like they sort of do now.

TiMuN · Post by **TiMuN** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:27 am

I knew this would come up sometime.

Chaos Dwarves have managed to claim big prices at the Rendez-vous (2 CD teams at the final), BarnaBowl '03 won by CDs, and recently, T:5 where Tim repeated success. But that is only 3 players out of ... how many?

But what about other tourneys? Were they big at Nottingham? Spike? Any other tourney where they were high in the lists?

The way i see it is that they have been powered up quite much by including two rookie bull centaurs on the Cockerel, and nothing else changed from the starting point. Maybe it's ok to raise the RR by 10k (i always start with 3RR which is above average), or bring back the 'really stupid' to the hobbos, as proposed in 4th ed (?)

Dunno .. but let's watch those silly hats closely and postpone the decissions untill they are clearly proven guilty.

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:44 am

I just do not see how they are so strong.

They have overpriced Hobgoblins (human linemen with one less movement), Dwarf longbeards (as positional players instead of linemen), and Bull Centaurs. The bets players on the team are the Centaurs, but they have only two, cost 130k, and are AG2. For 130k I expect them to be good.

Many other rosters have much more potential for power-gaming and abuse (Undead, Orcs, Wood Elves, ect...). I just do not see what is so overpowering in a CD team. In fact I have never seen one win a tournament.

My conclusion is that it must be the coaches.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:50 am

Make the take off those stupid hats!

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:53 am

I came 4th with chaos dwarfs at the blood bowl and that was the highest place chaos dwarf team

there is that canadian guy who has won at least 2 tournaments with chaos dwarfs and it yet to lose a match

the reason why they are so good is cause they have a bit of everything

cheap linos (may be overpriced but they are still cheap players)
block tackle av9 dwarfs are great
bull centaurs are one of the best player types around
cheapish rerolls

they can be quite a forgiving team to play, keep the hobbos back and they have enough movement and the dwarfs can get stuck in, block and tackle cause turnovers a lot and they are quite an easy team to coach, the only thing they don't really have is a strong passing game but they are really good at the running game, with some strong anchors, nippy expendable players and then 2 strong blitzers

basically they are really good at stopping the other team scoring compared to a lot of races and well games are won when you score when you are kicking, which is what chaos dwarfs are good at

Valen · Post by **Valen** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:53 am

Do mean "Make THEM take off those stupid hats"

Got ya

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:02 pm

Yeah, but the "M" key only works on this daMn keyboard if I press shift

MickeX · Post by **MickeX** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:04 pm

When looking at the tourney stats, consider which ones allow star players. That old chap Hthark is a popular star player for a good reason - maybe simply tuning him down would do the trick.

Micke

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:08 pm

TiMuN wrote:I knew this would come up sometime.

There was a certain amount of discussion at Tulips about CD's being the best tourny team.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:13 pm

A quick calculation of the NAF coach ratings give us the following average CR per race. Included are the average in march and the average now in july, and the development of the average value.

Code: Select all

Race      March    July          Delta
C.Dwarf 158.39  160.4566667 2.0666667
Undead  162.24 160.2482143 -1.9917857
----------------------------------------------------------------
Skaven     151.74 151.0000000 -0.74
Amazons    150.13  150.0545455 -0.0754545
Humans     151       150.0063636  -0.9936364
W.Elves   151.03  149.4244444 -1.6055556
Dwarves   146.85  149.0458621 2.1958621
Orc        147.82  149.0255102 1.2055102
H.Elves    148.54  148.9626667 0.4226667
Lizardmen 148.77   148.4084211 -0.3615789
Norse   147.39    148.0315000 0.6415
D.Elves   142    146.0943750  4.094375
Chaos     148.12    145.2891667 -2.8308333
----------------------------------------------------------------
Halflings 134.68  134.5511111 -0.1288889
Goblins   131.37  134.4420000 3.072

These results do set three very distinct classes of teams - the chaos dwarf and undead teams, the humour teams and the rest. The boundary between the middle group and theother groups are about 10 units.

Naturally, the data from which these are derived are still so small that it's impossible to rule out the possibility of a statistical anomaly from what the actual values would be if the amount of coaches having playerd the same amount of games would approach infinity.

The point most worthy of noting is the coach selection - what kind of coaches decide to use chaos dwarves or undead?
Basicly the question becomes whether people have considered them to be sub-par teams and consequently only daring coaches have tried them? If this is the case, their ratings will begin to gradually drop as more and more people dare to try them.

Apart from the two question marks, the undead and the chaos dwarves, we can see that the rest of the teams seem indeed quite balanced.
Dark elves, for example, whose low rankings were a cause of a lot of grief in march have really improved to the same level with the normal teams.
Chaos seems to be in a slight decline and has now claimed (rather unsurprisingly) the position as the weakest normal team in a tournament setting.
And goblins of course have almost reached the ranking of halflings...

traveller · Post by **traveller** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:27 pm

what was this in the middle... ?

Traveller <who start collecting CDs and other necassary players for a CD team to improve his chances >

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:26 pm

I think the reason that Undead and Chaos Dwarves do so well is pretty simple. They're bashy teams with speed.

Bull Centaurs can move 9 spaces, and Ghouls have Dodge and can move 7. This is a lot of recovery space for a pair of teams that generally win games by taking people off the pitch. Orcs use the same strategy, but their limited movement means that against fast teams, they always have to watch out for the breakaway threat. The more movement you have, the less you have to worry about that sort of thing.