What to do with Diving Tackle?

[wesleytj]

Thanks for voting!

[wesleytj]

Now here's why I voted as I did (and why I made this poll too I suppose)

After giving the new version of the skill and honest shot, I've decided I like the old one better. But at the same time I understand that it was occasionally abused. I remember mummies with Diving Tackle, Black Orcs with Diving Tackle (both of which I've done ), and so on.

I also remember elf teams where the ENTIRE team had Diving Tackle. That much of it makes the skill really broken.

But I have a way to keep the old skill, which I prefer, and take away the abuses of it. Make it a trait. That way an elf team has to split its doubles rolls if it wants any guard, or diving tackle, or mighty blow, or dauntless, or a number of other useful skills they can only take with a doubles roll. And you won't see a whole team with it like you did in the past. You might have a couple of guys with it on the defensive wings to help hold the corners, or on offense helping form a corner or two of an elf cage. Nothing excessive, basically what the skill was designed for.

Other than elves, most of the players with access to agility traits are ST2. Skinks, GutterRunners, Human catcher, gobs, flings, and so on. And I don't think anyone ever thought they were broken with Diving Tackle. So that's not really an issue. If they want to (comparatively) waste a doubles roll on it, then that's fine by most people.

And of course the big bruiser guys wouldn't be able to take it at all, so that part of the brokenness of the old skill is solved as well.

I guess when it boils down to it, the new Diving Tackle just isn't that fun to me. Most people would just as soon hit a guy with DT as opposed to trying to dodge away from them anyway. It was meant to be a counter for agility teams against strength teams to try keep them from getting blitzed or whatever. And when used by low St guys (3 or less) it was almost always 2db against; any decent coach always made sure it was before they blitzed them. And since it was during the other guy's turn, they couldn't reroll it, so it was kinda a desperation move anyway. Now it's more scary to other elf teams or skaven or something than it is to the strength teams.

And instead of more changes with all new rules, I'd like to just go back to the way most people who play BB are used to anyway.

This one means a lot to me, I hope somebody backs me up on this. Usually I'm the loner on stuff, nobody hardly ever seems to agree with my points of view. But I really hope we can get this one switched back.

OK, I'm done.

[GalakStarscraper]

My recommendation wes ....

We added the Stiff Arm skill to our league. Its a Agility skill, -1 ST to opponent when they one at least one square to blitz you. Giving you a little feel of the old DT without the being a turn interrupt (which was my biggest problem with the skill) ... I don't think you should roll dice during your opponent's turn ... (my opinion).

I like the new DT a lot. I have a team with 4 DT Blitzers and I use them. They can plug up lanes quit well and while I appreciate that they can just be hit ... well since the skill isn't used until after the dodge roll, its pretty good.

Galak

[Marcus]

I love the new Diving Tackle rule. I was never comfortable with the old rule at all and was glad to see the change.

My only suggestion is that I'd like to see the decision to Diving Tackle made before the dodge roll. I don't like the retroactive element as it currently stands [cf: Chet's proposed changes to Piling On for reasons why]

I have no desire to go back to the old flying block days.

Marcus

[GalakStarscraper]

To me Marcus ... I find DT too weak without the after roll effect. Again all 4 of my blitzers have DT so I've been playing with the skill a lot lately.

Galak

[voyagers_uk]

I prefer the after bit too, keeps it a decent skill,

I used to exploit the old pinball type skill a lot, but much prefer it this way.

[Toby]

I think its really good now.

It fits to tackle (no dodging reroll) -> even harder dodge roll

It is like one imagines a diving tackle. Think of a sliding tackle in socker !

Perfect Ruling, excellent skill !!!

[Acerak]

I'd like to see the skill tweaked on two counts:

1. It ought to involve a pre-die decision.
2. It doesn't need to mirror a current skill (i.e., Prehensile Tail).

AV skills suffer badly from that second point. We don't need 5 skills that all do the same (unimaginative) thing.

Here's what I'd like to do with Diving Tackle. It requires a bit of sidestepping and lateral thinking:

Diving Tackle: The player may use this skill if an opposing player attempts to dodge out of his tackle zone. Place the player using this skill prone, but do not make an armor or injury roll for him. The opposing player must then roll two dice for his dodge roll instead of one, and he must take the lower score as his dodge result. If the player is attempting to leave the tackle zone of several players that have the Diving Tackle skill, then only one of the opposing players may make a diving tackle.

The numbers aren't 100% spot-on with the current mechanic, but they're obviously better than an unadulterated dodge. (If you want something closer to the current numbers, I suggest you roll 3D6 instead. This seems unnecessarily clumsy to me, however.)

Regardless, this puts some choice in the matter and keeps the numbers worse for the diver. And it's a different mechanic rather than "the poor man's Prehensile Tail." Remember: This skill has the potential to stop TDs and cause turnovers.

Guess I'll have to return to that "New Idea" thread sooner than I thought...

-Chet

[Furelli]

Chet, I like your idea very much. I'd like to see the numbers, it is a very different mechanic. Put this with a change of rules for piling on and change all skills to be applied before the dice rolls - maybe with stacking and I think we might be there.

Nice One.

Furelli.

[Acerak]

Numbers:

Code: Select all

Dodge   Std   Cur   2D6   3D6
~~~~~   ~~~   ~~~   ~~~   ~~~
2+     .833  .500  .694  .579
3+     .667  .333  .444  .296
4+     .500  .167  .250  .125

Key
* Dodge = Dodge roll required
* Std = Standard roll, no mods
* Cur = With current DT applied (-2 to die roll)
* 2D6 = Roll two dice, pick lower result
* 3D6 = Roll three dice, pick lowest result

-----

As you can see, rolling 2D6 is not as good as taking the -2 modifier. And yes, you'd have to go prone before the roll. But quite a few coaches would consider that second fact a good thing. You could also combine this quite easily with PTail on a 2+ dodge to produce this:

* Std: .833 (no skills)
* Old: .333 (-2 for DT, -1 for PTail)
* New: .444 (2D6 for DT, -1 for PTail)

I think that's a pretty good return for no AV roll, especially in the following cases:

1. You'll get a turnover if it works.
2. You'll stop a TD if it works.

I know I'd still take it.

-Chet

[GalakStarscraper]

This is one of the few skills I like as is that you've suggested changes to Chet.

Galak

[DoubleSkulls]

Maybe compensate for the reduced effectiveness by making it apply to leaps and dodges?

Ian

[Sputnik]

The 3rd ed. was way too much. I like it as it is with going prone after the dice roll.

Sputnik

[Acerak]

The 4E and 2K1 versions of Diving Tackle share a few common elements:

1. The player dives at an opponent who is trying to run away.
2. The opponent has a reduced chance to make the dodge roll.

In another thread, someone suggested a straight 4+ roll to tackle the player. I took that idea, ran with it for a while, and dropped it like this:

Diving Tackle: Declare this skill after the opposing coach has declared a dodge roll and moved one of his players out of this player's tackle zone, but before he rolls the dice to make the dodge. Your player dives after the opponent in an attempt to bring him down quickly! Roll a D6. On a roll of 2 or more, your player has tackled the opponent cleanly. The opposing player fails the dodge roll automatically, there is no need to roll the dice. On a roll of 1, however, your player has missed. The opposing coach succeeds automatically, and he may make an armor roll for your player as well.

Of course, the opposing player is allowed to use Dodge or a TRR to re-roll the auto-fail. If he fails, he suffers a turnover.

I think this would be a nice, clean, simple solution. The pre-roll dive cleanly handles the prone/timing issue. The other player can get away. You don't worry about messy instances in which you use the skill on a re-roll, or other such rules questions. It's just dive, roll, hope - which is what this skill should be about, really. Especially as it causes a turnover if successful.

-Chet

[Zombie]

You forgot the most important option of all : current rule, but you have to decide whether to use it before the die is rolled. That's what it should have been in the first place, it's what we've always played around here (well, since 4th ed), and it gets my vote.