Yet another suggestion to replace aging

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:26 pm

How is it likes more than exp or aging?!?

Saying agility vs agillity doesn't mean less cas/kos, I usually suffer more cas and kos to agility teams, you never know how the dice are going to go. If your teams is getting hurt a lot every game, you are already starting with 8/9 starting players and the more games you play the harder its going to be to get back to just 11. If your starting men down you can't afford to rest players, you will just lose more games. I think the system stinks.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:17 pm

That's just crap! AV has little to do with it.

Why aren't Norse teams suffering casualties left and right? Cuz they have block. Skills! Elf linemen progress faster than any other linemen in the game. Block will keep them injury free just as well as AV 8! You're talking crap in a knee jerk reaction. How long have you played the game? I don't mean that as an insult but if you think that the stats are what's important then you are sadly mistaken. It's true that a dwarf longbeard will probably have no fear of early retirement under this system but they aren't the problem are they? It's those nasty players who develop 5 or 6 skills in under 20 games...who would be the race that does that? Hmmn...is the dwarfs? Is it the humans? Is it the orcs? nope I think it's the Wood Elves and Skaven isn't it? The low AV players are the ones who get all the skills so of course the system needs to control them!

If longbeards were tearing up everyone's leagues you'd see an ageing table based on who has the lowest MA but it's just not the case. I think you need to give a realistic look to what happens in the game. The high AV players are not the ones getting all the skills. Yes, Orc blitzers and chaos warriors are known to get a little out of control but it happens a lot slower than to them than it does to a gutter runner. If we use a system based on number of games then it's going to target slow developing teams much more than quicker ones. Elves and Skaven will develop a team fast and undead and dwarfs will be crippled before they can catch up. That is not what i want.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:31 pm

Erm how long have you learned to read what i am saying. I've been playing since 3rd ed came out. I was saying any team that suffered badl from injuries woudl just get caught in a downward spiral. Any team regardless of av and block skill can get hurt a lot. Any team can get caught in this, currently you can carry on and play through it. If you make kos and injuries have more of an impact its going to cripple any team.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:34 pm

I guess you missed my post which suggested some adaptations to the EXP system outlining that it might possably be better to have it just kick in after the 4th skill or a certain number of spp. Or do you think that will still work against the teams that gain spp slowly. The whole post with explanation was in the "i hate aging" thread iirc.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:38 pm

If you could carry on and play through it why couldn't you now?

What's the difference if your skaven team plays short handed under either system? In fact in Indigo's system I think you have a better chance of not being short handed! Either way, why would playing short be any different? This system allows you to heal your players. It doesn't hurt anyone worse than it did before. I think you are looking at it the wrong way. Just because a player doesn't have 10 health point doesn't mean you should keep him out of the game. Heck even if he's at 0 he can still play!

BTW, excuse me for not knowing how long you have played the game?! What am I supposed to read and remember every post you make?
How long have I played it?

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:40 pm

Pariah wrote:That's just crap! AV has little to do with it.

Why aren't Norse teams suffering casualties left and right? Cuz they have block. Skills! Elf linemen progress faster than any other linemen in the game. Block will keep them injury free just as well as AV 8!

You seem to be ignoring the fact that a Longbeard is basically 'done' at 6SPPs. Block, Tackle, Thick Skull, and Guard or Mighty Blow. They might not rack up the SPPs but they don't need to.
Stop comparing Dwarf Blitzers with Wardancers or Gutter Runners.
How good is a Skaven linerat or human/orc lineman at the same 6SPPs as a Longbeard?
Lower AV teams will carry more nigglers than higher AV ones. You can't get around that. Humans/Orcs are fairly balanced right now, you'd be tipping the scales in the Orcs favour.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:44 pm

Okay, shall we compare the longbeard to the wardancer?

Will reach their 2 roll (5th skill first?) Who will be the power source of the uber-team? Who should age first?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:46 pm

If your playing short these players are going to have lower fitness. Less players means its easier for them to get 2 dice blocks about the pitch and inflict more ko's etc. This will take your fitness progressivly down every match. Eventually you will get players with relaly low fitness. Now you have the choice of either resting them so they won't age, meaning you will have even less players on the pitch. Or playing them, while still not having 11 players and giving them even more chance to get to 0 fitness and aging.

I really don't see how his system means you have a better chance of being short handed. Your still going to get MNG and RIP, yet your going to have to be careful with playing players who have low fitness as well so they don't age.

I wish you would explain your arguments so I can see where your coming from. Maybe I am missing something, if so point it out.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:47 pm

Are you playing ateam who isn't using the fitness system as well? WTF are you talking about? You are saying that only you will have to play short? Is that it? Or do you mean only I will? Or only skaven will?

Explain? So true, you first. Who is playing short? Only one person in the league? Are you saying that dwarfs don't suffer injuries or that beastmen will never be short handed because 4 players have AV 9?

You're not looking at this universally. You just sound like a power gamer.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:57 pm

I said already that any team that suffers matches with consecuative injuries will get hurt by this. Sure other teams have to watch out as well but if your playing a team thats only have a couple of ko's they aren't going to have to worry about players missing through serious injuries and most likely not have to be worrying to the same degree about the fitness levels. They already have a full roster with subs to your short team. So it will be easy for them to rest someone.

Your team will not be able to as many blocks cause your players short so, the other team isn't odds on to suffer at your hands, while like i said your players are going to get his down more. I also said this can affect any team regardless of skills and av. Its any team that gets a bad run of injuries who are playing short game after game, the effect is just going to be exaggerated.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:08 pm

Pariah wrote:Okay, shall we compare the longbeard to the wardancer?

Will reach their 2 roll (5th skill first?) Who will be the power source of the uber-team? Who should age first?

A line of Longbeards that get to 16SPPs pretty much is the power source of Dwarf teams. And Dwarves might take a while to get there, but once they do...

And who tends to pick up niggles? Wardancers and GRs?
Or Skaven linerats, human lineman, stunties etc. I reckon the cannon fodder on the line in any team are the guys more liable to be carrying injuries over the positional players.
(Unless they're Longbeards.

)

I'm not a huge fan, but at least skill based aging is targeting the problem players rather than the linemugs. I don't want to see a system where the positional players get away relatively unscathed while there's a constant turnover of the rank and file, particularly on the lower AV teams. That's the risk of any injury-tied system. Yes, it'd keep TR down, but I don't believe it's the way to go.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:13 pm

A lione of longbeards that 16 spp's?
And under the current rules you have seen how many of these teams? What was the TR of that team? To be honest I'd take a couple of wardancers at 16 spp's than a whole team of longbeards! Wardancers are still harder to knock down than longbeards and they can out run them every time.

Like I said in the pm. positional comparrison is irrelevant. Team developemnt comparrison is what you need to look at.

A skill based ageing system is still going to target the low AV players sooner. Why aren't you guys against that?

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:17 pm

Pariah, stop your personal attacks.

Grumbledook, what we're saying is that with the current system, wood elves are the ones who get hurt the most by aging, because they gain skills fastest. In the proposed system (let's call it fitness), it won't be any worse. If anything, it will be more balanced, because all teams suffer a lot of CAS and KOs. If anything, high AV teams suffer more KOs every game, because they keep sticking their players on the other team's, while elves for instance just dodge away all the time. Have you seen an orc vs chaos game recently? Those are the games where the KO box gets full.

Remember that if a KO is worth 1 point, and resting only heals 1, that means every KO is equivalent to one miss next, but, and this is important, at the game of your choice. If you're already down by a lot of players, don't rest them. If the next game you play against halflings or you have 14 players present, rest a couple. Nigglings that you get from aging don't give you that choice. And if the numbers are off in the fitness system, we can easily change them, e.g. by making rest be worth two points.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:18 pm

It targets the player who have lots of skills. Thats not just ag low av players. Piling on big guys, high scoring bull centaurs are also in this.

I do agree with you about game based aging will be a bit harsh on the slower develping players. Let me go see if i can find my post on a variation of the exp system and i will post it here.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:19 pm

Deathwing wrote:And who tends to pick up niggles? Wardancers and GRs?
Or Skaven linerats, human lineman, stunties etc. I reckon the cannon fodder on the line in any team are the guys more liable to be carrying injuries over the positional players.
(Unless they're Longbeards. )

I'm not a huge fan, but at least skill based aging is targeting the problem players rather than the linemugs. I don't want to see a system where the positional players get away relatively unscathed while there's a constant turnover of the rank and file, particularly on the lower AV teams. That's the risk of any injury-tied system. Yes, it'd keep TR down, but I don't believe it's the way to go.

Remember also that power players (be they wardancers or others) tend to attract fouling. The CAS and KOs they'll suffer will mean a lot of resting games for them.