Luck and fundamental changes to BB

[Duke Jan]

Yes ofcourse, if your opponent forces you to throw over him than he is playing a good game. But if you are throwing the winning pass-catch with way more chance to succeed (say elfthrower and elfcatcher) why should he win because he rolled a 6 at that very moment...

What i mean is: interceptions can lead to this situation:
you have both played a good game, but you have the played a bit better; you have the ball and all.

It all comes down on one dice-roll of your opponent. If it is a 6 he wins, if it is not, you win.

Yes, that's what happens with small differences in quality, you have the chance to make it, or not. But you can never be sure. If this is your playing style you should play with a safe thrower. Defending 1-0 or 2-1 or anything of that nature is much harder than defending a 2-0 nor 3-1. This is perfectly reflected by the game as it is at the moment.

The only thing to do about bad rolls is yelling some abusive language in the direction of Nuffle.

[Duke Jan]

oh, on the topic of rr's, what do you think about being able to use them in other ways to decrease the influence of one all deciding roll?

For instance:
1) you can burn a rr to make an interception fail
2) you can burn a rr before you roll a 2+ roll to automaticly pass it.
3) you can burn a rr before you roll to automaticly pass a 3+withskillroll
4) you can burn a rr for +1 on one of your dice
5) you can burn a rr for -1 on one of your opponents dice

W

1) this would take the fun out of playing Flings?
2) NEVER!
3) NEVER!
4) sounds cool, but what's the use? A 1's a 1.
5) only for interceptions, shadowing, or something else happening in your turn.

This should definately not be combined with the use of multiple RRs a turn by the way. I don't like the sound of option 1-3 because:
1) It would take the fun out of BB.
2) It would take BB even closer to Tobybowl
3) It would threaten the raison d'être of the NBA
4) I like to curse Nuffle
5) I like to be able to stop Gutter Runners and War Dancers

[Redfang]

Simple solution:

Roll d10s or d20s; change the result required for each action to give similar (equal is not possible) values and limit the always fails/always succeeds to just 1 and 20 (5% each) or 1 and 10 (10% each)

But personally, even though I've often lost against worst coaches and hate that a lot, I like the game as it is *because* everything is possible on a 1 or 6.

R

[Cooper]

oh, on the topic of rr's, what do you think about being able to use them in other ways to decrease the influence of one all deciding roll?

For instance:
1) you can burn a rr to make an interception fail
2) you can burn a rr before you roll a 2+ roll to automaticly pass it.
3) you can burn a rr before you roll to automaticly pass a 3+withskillroll
4) you can burn a rr for +1 on one of your dice
5) you can burn a rr for -1 on one of your opponents dice

W

1) this would take the fun out of playing Flings?
2) NEVER!
3) NEVER!
4) sounds cool, but what's the use? A 1's a 1.
5) only for interceptions, shadowing, or something else happening in your turn.

This should definately not be combined with the use of multiple RRs a turn by the way. I don't like the sound of option 1-3 because:
1) It would take the fun out of BB.
2) It would take BB even closer to Tobybowl
3) It would threaten the raison d'être of the NBA
4) I like to curse Nuffle
5) I like to be able to stop Gutter Runners and War Dancers

What is TobyBowl and where can i find something about that? sounds good to me...

about your reason 5, Elves usually have money to buy 2 rr's. if they want to use one of them to auto-pass a 2+ roll (you could make it so that you have to chose when announcing the action or something). That way it will only be used on VERY important actions, and in other circumstaces they will just opt for making the 2+roll.

(i would like to get rid of the "1 is a 1" rule as well btw)

W

[Blackscale]

I agree that there is too much chance involved. Of course, experienced coaches will pick a suitable team for a tournament with a good roster and they will not make mistakes that can cost them the game, but still, even the best coach can lose if he throws a 1 or a skull on the wrong moment.

It is even possible to lose this game before you get a single turn if your opponent hits first and you lose more than two players. From that moment on, defense is difficult, because your opponent has three 'free' players to improve his blocks. So he will get better blocks => more knockdowns => more armor rolls => more injury rolls etc.
This 'casualty cascade' can easily cost you a game without any mistake on your part.

Even if you do a carefull risk assessment each turn you have to take your chances. Every 1 in 36 blocks fails (if you get 2 dice and have block yourself) and every 1 in six skill rolls fails.

Random MVP's and random skill/trait/stat choice make team development difficult and inconsistent.

[Cooper]

Simple solution:

Roll d10s or d20s; change the result required for each action to give similar (equal is not possible) values and limit the always fails/always succeeds to just 1 and 20 (5% each) or 1 and 10 (10% each)

But personally, even though I've often lost against worst coaches and hate that a lot, I like the game as it is *because* everything is possible on a 1 or 6.

R

I made the d20 idea already somewhere in this thread, so yes, i would see that as part of a workable solution. It would still keep that element of chance that everybody seems to want, but it will reduce the number of times that it actually has an influence.

W

[Gus]

my eyes burn to read such things.

[TuernRedvenom]

I think the game is fine. Luck is a factor that evens out in the long run. Our league always has the same players competing for the overall win.
I have lost to the worst player of our league due to bad luck but so what? If it wasn't for those occasional lucky wins for him he would have quit a long time ago (which would be a shame). To me the bad players winning once in a while due to good luck is more important than the good players losing once in a while due to bad luck.

[gken1]

To me the bad players winning once in a while due to good luck is more important than the good players losing once in a while due to bad luck.

Tuern said it perfectly!!! Good players are gonna win their share of games.

I think Cooper isn't as good a coach as he thinks he is or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Dave]

I'm pretty sure you're wrong there Gken .. I think he is the best couch of our league barring the fact that he should play more often ...

I think he likes the game BUT prefers game systems in which luck is less of a factor .. like in the games he mentioned ..

Personally I think the luck / tactic value is OK, no need for change ... I prefer not to change the game into a D10/D20 game as I feel it's OK ... For evenly good coaches the result will depend on luck, even if it's a stun at the right moment ... Or that interception ...

On the long run luck evens out and the better coach will rank higher .. that's good enough for me ..

[Zyad]

about your reason 5, Elves usually have money to buy 2 rr's. if they want to use one of them to auto-pass a 2+ roll (you could make it so that you have to chose when announcing the action or something). That way it will only be used on VERY important actions, and in other circumstaces they will just opt for making the 2+roll.

And what happens when a team hits 6, 7 ot even 8 re rolls? Elves would be unstoppable.

[RickA]

I heartily agree with the comments made by Cooper and Blackscale. I myself have just lost a cup match in our league due to bad luck.

Also about those interceptions: the way the rules are now is abominable. I myself have come to totally fear EVERY SINGLE pass I make on which my opponent has an interception. Why? Because the following is what has happened during the last 7 games I have played (6 at the BUBBLE + the cup match). I have thrown 4 interceptable passes with a Pro Elf team in those matches (in addition to other non-interceptable passes of course). Three against halflings (two different teams at the BUBBLE, yes I was that coach) and one against a dwarf team. All FOUR of these (so that is 100% of possible interceptions) have been intercepted with a 6. During the cup match I could negate the interception with my Safe Throw skill luckily, but the fact remains. The chance of this happening is 1/1296. Yet it happened. And I feel that in general my passes are intercepted much more often than they should be according to statistics.

If I want to play a game of chance, I'll go play a different game. I'm looking for a game of tactics, in which poorer players can still have a chance WITH SOME LUCK. Bloodbowl used to be such a game when I hadn't played long yet, however currently it is not that game anymore.

On topic: I think the introduction of D10's or D20's might be a good idea.

[Cooper]

about your reason 5, Elves usually have money to buy 2 rr's. if they want to use one of them to auto-pass a 2+ roll (you could make it so that you have to chose when announcing the action or something). That way it will only be used on VERY important actions, and in other circumstaces they will just opt for making the 2+roll.

And what happens when a team hits 6, 7 ot even 8 re rolls? Elves would be unstoppable.

I guess they would be. that would be bad. If this autopass idea makes it, we would have to change something about an elves roster (how many do you know with 6+rr's btw?)
Perhaps make RR more expensive for them, or make them have a max of 4.
Really, if it is just about balance ....balancing can be done by changing something on one of 2 sides...
W

PS Dave thx, if you meant coach instead of couch

[Zyad]

(how many do you know with 6+rr's btw?)

Quite a few actually....

[Cooper]

(how many do you know with 6+rr's btw?)

Quite a few actually....

ok, ..i don't...
but i agree that wouldn't work out very well together (elves with 6+ rr and this autopass idea), if you change something on one side of the balance something should change on the other side of the balance as well,
W