Big Guys and Pro

[SixFootDwarf]

OK, so maybe I'm a little too conservative. Wouldn't be the first time.

However Ian, I'm QUITE positive you can't use a TRR on a failed Pro roll. So you mean if your Ogre fails his Pro roll you could use a TRR to re-roll his Pro roll??? Or if you have a regular player that rolls a Skull and fails his Pro roll you can TRR his Pro roll???? That's disgusting.

The rulebook quite specifically states that TRRs can only be used on "actions". To me that would mean handoffs, throws, catches, blocks, dodges, GFIs, that sort of thing. I can live with people using Pro for Dauntless and Bonehead and all that, but using a TRR to re-roll a Pro re-roll is sick.

[Anthony_TBBF]

Not only sick, but kinda stupid too...

[GalakStarscraper]

OK, so maybe I'm a little too conservative. Wouldn't be the first time.

However Ian, I'm QUITE positive you can't use a TRR on a failed Pro roll. So you mean if your Ogre fails his Pro roll you could use a TRR to re-roll his Pro roll??? Or if you have a regular player that rolls a Skull and fails his Pro roll you can TRR his Pro roll???? That's disgusting.

The rulebook quite specifically states that TRRs can only be used on "actions". To me that would mean handoffs, throws, catches, blocks, dodges, GFIs, that sort of thing. I can live with people using Pro for Dauntless and Bonehead and all that, but using a TRR to re-roll a Pro re-roll is sick.

You can use a TRR on Pro. Its perfectly legal ... but really if you are willing to burn a reroll on Pro then you should have just used it in the 1st place, the risk reward doesn't pan out.

Example 1:
Failed roll
I use a TRR to reroll it ... 100% chance of getting to reroll the roll.

Example 2:
Failed Roll
Use Pro to get 50% of success and fail
Use TTR to reroll Pro which will increase my odds of getting to reroll the original roll to 75% overall.

Put another way.
Using Pro and then a TTR to reroll Pro is taking a 50% of saving a TRR for a 75% chance of reroll the failed roll vs using the TRR for a 100% chance.

Don't know about you but the math for on this one is that the 50% chance to not have to use the TTR DOES NOT outweight the 25% that I'll use the TTR and not have even reroll the failed roll.

So while its legal any idiot who would actually do this probably has a 0-5 record in your league anyway.

Galak

[Vesticle]

And no, your Ogre can't use a TRR to re-roll his failed Pro roll, because Big Guys can't use TRRs.

As for Pro, in an isolated sense, the problem is that you'll wind up only using it for partial failures, or Big Guys, or if you're out of TRRs. If it's bad enough that you need to re-roll it, you'll use a TRR.

As for Pro, consider that you aren't taking another skill in it's place. I could say that a Troll with Shadowing is better than one without it, but that's completely ignoring the fact that I took Shadowing *over* another skill. Block, Dodge, Accurate, and Strip Ball, as examples, all can reduce your need to use a TRR and increase your chance of success.

For example, a thrower could take safe throw and pro, and have a low chance of being intercepted. However, by the same token, he could have taken Accurate and Safe Throw, and thus had both a better chance of completion and low chance of interception. Also, as stated before, you could use a TRR on the Safe Throw roll instead, or also you could just not throw over opponent's players that often.

[Zombie]

Okay we agree that one can use Pro on Take Root, Bone Head and Very Stupid.

No we don't. Galak already said that it can't be used on take root, and he's quite right about that.

[Zombie]

So while its legal any idiot who would actually do this probably has a 0-5 record in your league anyway.

Galak, don't call me an idiot. And no, i never had a losing record in any past league either (except when i played ogres and minotaurs, i had a 0-1 record with each, my halflings finished the season 3-2-1).

It's usually not a good idea to do such a thing, but sometimes it's the best thing to do. For example, if you have tons of rerolls (like i usually do) but know that you've got some pretty tough dice rolls coming up this turn, and of course you can never use more than one reroll per turn. The roll you just failed is crucial, but so are the other rolls (many of them difficult) that you'll have to make later in that same turn. Also, succeding in this roll is useless unless you can succeed in the rest as well. A good example would be when you have a 1 in 20 chance of being able to score on the last turn of a half, and fail the pick up.

In that case, the best course of action is to use pro in an attempt to keep the reroll for later in the turn. If you fail, you're still better off using the TRR to reroll pro, as you have too many TRR anyway.

I wouldn't recommand doing that all the time, but there certainly are some circumstances (and they arise often with my playing style) where this is the best thing to do.

[SixFootDwarf]

Too true, Anthony...stupid it is, but it's the fact that it's LEGAL to be that stupid that bugs me.

OK Galak, so lemme get this straight: the LRB says "team re-rolls may be used to re-roll an action carried out by a player on their own team during their own team turn." It also has a list of "actions" as being move, block, blitz, and pass. Of course things like catch, dodge, and GFI are re-rollable without being on that list....but if you notice, those are all actions carried out by a player on the field, correct? "Action" being a player interacting with either the ball, the field, or another player. Rolling a dice CANNOT be considered an action. It's a roll, not an action. Pro specifically states "Any dice roll" so I figure if the Creators meant a roll, they'd SAY a roll? Am I being silly?

So to me rolling for Safe Throw is a ROLL, as is Pro...and therefore not eligible to be TRR'ed.

Cuz if you wanna get crazy and technical, a "Pro" Treeman/Vampire would put his desires aside and show up a bit more often than a regular one, don't ya think?

[Zombie]

Your definition of action is wrong. A hand off, a catch and a go for it are not an action by any stretch of imagination. There are only 6 basic actions: move, block, blitz, pass, hand off, foul. However, anything the player does during his turn is considered as being part of his action. Using a pro reroll, therefore, is part of his action as well.

[Pink Horror]

Well, a move isn't a roll, and neither is a blitz, catch, dodge, block, foul, or any other action or event. They require rolls, but are not rolls in and of themselves. I guess you can't use team re-rolls on anything, then.



Pink Horror

[Grumbledook]

Pink horror that is a tad silly if you don't mind me saying, pro lets you reroll one personal roll that player has made during that players turn afaik. This means he can use it to reroll dodges, block dice, etc and even a catch later in the turn, even after they have made an action earlier in the turn.

The rulebook says "Once per team turn, a Pro is allowedto re-roll any one dice roll he has made."

That seems rather clear to me, does mention during an action or anything. Things like take root aren't taken place during a team turn so can't be re-rolled.

End of story as far as i am concerned, I can't see how this isn't clear.

[GalakStarscraper]

A good example would be when you have a 1 in 20 chance of being able to score on the last turn of a half, and fail the pick up.

My apologies Zombie. I'd have to really think through the stats but I guess if it was turn 8 and I needed to 3+ pickup the ball (player with Pro) and then 5+ catch roll (Player doesn't have Pro and is AG 1) for the handoff it to score and the Player had Pro, I could see try to save the reroll for the 5+ catch. I'd have to think through the stats though of if this makes good risk/reward sense.

Okay went through the stats an in the above scenario it would make more sense to try to use Pro on the Pickup. After the failed Pickup, you have a 24.1% chance of scoring if you use Pro first vs a 22.2% if you use the TTR on the pickup straight up. So on this one I'll readily agree Zombie that using Pro first makes more sense. The variables though need to be pretty high for the remaining action for this to make sense though, but it could happen. So sorry, there are case where this would actually be good coaching.

Galak

[Zombie]

It would make even more sense if the second player didn't have pro. I was talking about, e.g. needing 3+, 3+, 4+, 3+, 2+, 2+ to score, where nobody has a reroll or even pro, except for possible pro on the first roll. In that case, it's clear that you need to use pro on the first roll and keep your TRR for the other rolls. It's also clear that you need to RR the pro roll in case of failure, otherwise the turnover will prevent you from even trying the other ones.

This happens much more often than you think, and not only on turn 8. For example, on defense, i play very agressively to try and steal the ball. 5+ dodge rolls are not uncommon then. And to steal the ball, you need more than one roll, and it's also nice to keep your TRR for the blitz.

[woodmeister]

Interested by Galaks assertion that Pro cannot be used for off pitch rolls like Take Root I reread the Pro skill text in the LRB. Having a halfling team you look for all the help you can give 'em especially when Treeman have a nasty habit of forgetting to turn up. Here's what is says...

Pro (General Skill)
A player with this skill is a hardened veteran. Such players are
called professionals or Pro’s by other Blood Bowl players because
they rarely, if ever, make a mistake. Once per team turn, a Pro is
allowed to re-roll any one dice roll he has made. However, before
the re-roll may be made, his coach must roll a dice. On a roll of 4,
5 or 6 the re-roll may be made. On a roll of 1, 2 or 3 the original
result stands and may not be re-rolled with a skill or team re-roll.
A player cannot use this skill to re-roll an Armour or Injury roll.

Like many of the other big guy traits/skills they are listed in a different part of the LRB away from the section on skills and traits, but I think the important words in the Pro description are re-roll any one dice roll he has made. It seems in game terms that as a Pro the big guy is on some occasions able to fight his unfortunate racial tendency of, in the case of a Treeman, hanging around with his arboral chums and not turning up for the big match.

[Marcus]

You neglected to mention the text says Once per team turn... Take root is not rolled during a team turn.

[woodmeister]

You neglected to mention the text says Once per team turn... Take root is not rolled during a team turn.

I should have known better than to contradict you guys. Good point Marcus, Take Root is rolled before the match starts.

I still like the idea of Big Guys with Pro being able to fight the strange urges that seem to afflict them from time to time.