Jervis Johnson Specialist Games Discussion at GenCon

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:21 pm

I like thw sound of option 2, especially if it meant a return of both Space Hulk and Quest.
Damn, I'd never have to buy another 40k/WFB product again!

Of course, that attitude right there is a neative as far as GW are concerned.

Khaine · Post by **Khaine** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:49 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:Naz asked me what JJ was talking about when he said there were multiple options for marketing BB but that it was complex and he would talk directly to me (JJ had dinner with my family that night).

Okay ... I'll try to summarize an hour discussion into the options:

1) GW agrees to finance the operation as part of the SG range.

2) GW sets up a board game division (sort of like Specialist Games but its own division). This division would service Blood Bowl and maybe bring back Space Hulk, Warhammer Quest, and Talisman. This was the one that JJ really likes. He thinks this would give GW more ability to create some new games and offer Blood Bowl the most funding since it would most likely be the flagship product of this company.

3) License the game and allow another company or organization to market it. Say Parker Brothers ... and then we see it in Wal-Mart, Target, Toy 'R US, and Meijer.

These were the options JJ said are all now being discussed for BB's 20th anniversary release.

Galak

Option 3 scares me so much I can't even fathom it.

Emberbreeze · Post by **Emberbreeze** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:03 pm

3 sounds dodgy unless SG maintanied complete creative control and the other comany simply marketed/produced/distributed the game.

1 sounds like the most likely to me, but 2 sounds like a dream come true! space hulk rocks! Warhammer quest was a great game and if only the would bring back Advanced Space crusade

Warhammer · Post by **Warhammer** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:06 pm

Option 2 could make a mint for GW.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:40 pm

Emberbreeze wrote:3 sounds dodgy unless SG maintanied complete creative control and the other comany simply marketed/produced/distributed the game.

Just to be clear this is what that would entail.

GW has done this in the past. An example being Battle Masters which GW licensed to Milton Bradley which was a simplified version of WFB that GW had created.

Galak

Mad Jackal · Post by **Mad Jackal** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:42 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:
Emberbreeze wrote:3 sounds dodgy unless SG maintanied complete creative control and the other comany simply marketed/produced/distributed the game.
Just to be clear this is what that would entail.

GW has done this in the past. An example being Battle Masters which GW licensed to Milton Bradley which was a simplified version of WFB that GW had created.

Galak

I do recall seeing that before. It wasn't horrible.

BB with plastic already painted figs would seriously open up the market....

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:32 pm

You gotta believe it.

And if they didn't change the rules I would be in the shops evbery day to hand munchkins their arse on a plate.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:27 pm

Dark Lord wrote:And if they didn't change the rules I would be in the shops evbery day to hand munchkins their arse on a plate.

The intent if option 3 is used is to split the rulebook into a 16 page Basic Rulebook and a 64 page Advanced rulebook similar to what Hasbro did with their very successful Heroscape game. The basic rules of Heroscape are great for playing against young kids (my 6 and 9 year play against me regularly using the Basic rules) ... the advanced rules make it a good adult gamer game. So any mass market approach to the game would be to aim the rules to be published like this. Not changed so much as divided by complexity.

Option #2 is really the one that would work best ... but would probably completely stall out any GW support for BB until that company could get legs.

My personal favourite would be for Option #1 to go through get the new product on the shelf and then work towards option #2 so as not to stall out the process already in motion.

Galak

Mo · Post by Mo » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:43 pm

Chairface wrote:Its not such a big suprise that JJ had such a negative reaction to Shadowforge and other companies making "Bloodbowl ripoffs" but if GW isn't going to fill the BB void, someone has to.

I've never liked GWs stance of using only Games Workshop figures (how many times does this line appear in the rulebook??). Their myriad attempts over the years to quash competition is in general bad for the miniatures gaming hobby. Diversity of products and innovation is much healthier for the consumer. I've always purchased the figures that I like best for quality & price for any miniatures game I've played.

Yes, I understand that it makes it easier for them to support the game if they monopolise all the profits from it. But on the other hand, if their figs were good quality and/or a decent price, I'd be willing to buy more of them. I'm glad I have a bunch of the 2e figs. For my tastes, most of the newer ones are junk. Even for the ones I might consider buying, the prices are too exhorbitant. There are better figures at better prices that I'll buy (well, some of the Shadowforge ones are better; the Nuns and the Orcs are too goofy for me). I bought Phil's Valkyries -- even without pants I like them better than the official Amazons.

JJ & GW can complain all they want about fair competition, but I'd much rather see them rise to the challenge and provide a better product. Then I'd have more good figures to consider buying, and I'd happily give them a bigger share of my hobby dollars.

Highlander · Post by **Highlander** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:36 pm

My wish would be for option #2 to happen. I'd love for Warhammer Quest to come back in print. I went to a local shop where they were playing it, and I played it once and was hooked. Unfortunately I can't justify pay the outrageous prices for it on eBay.

I never had a chance to play Space Hulk or many of the other early boxed games by GW (Other than HeroQuest which I still have a copy of). It'd be nice to have a chance to get to play them.

And I had a copy of Battle Masters back when I was younger too, but I never got in enough times to play it.

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:01 am

I would love to see option two happen BUT I would hate to see it be another "Fanatic" or "Specialist Games" kind of deal.

By that I mean a half assed, half supported, under manned, under funded attempt at draining our pocket books.

An endeavor where WE do a huge portion the work and playtesting and meanwhile get ZERO credit, and something completely 180 degrees from what we want! (Yes I'm talking about the Vault. NOBODY wanted a major rules overhaul. The suuport the vault got came at gunpoint.)

If it were a real endeavor to put boardgames out on store shelves I would be right behind it and even sacrifice what I could to help.

If it is just another attempt to hand us a turd wrapped in tinfoil and a high price I would avoid it like the plague.

Gumbo · Post by **Gumbo** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:58 am

But its a very nice turd...

Tritex · Post by **Tritex** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:17 am

GalakStarscraper wrote:Naz asked me what JJ was talking about when he said there were multiple options for marketing BB but that it was complex and he would talk directly to me (JJ had dinner with my family that night).

Okay ... I'll try to summarize an hour discussion into the options:

1) GW agrees to finance the operation as part of the SG range.

2) GW sets up a board game division (sort of like Specialist Games but its own division). This division would service Blood Bowl and maybe bring back Space Hulk, Warhammer Quest, and Talisman. This was the one that JJ really likes. He thinks this would give GW more ability to create some new games and offer Blood Bowl the most funding since it would most likely be the flagship product of this company.

3) License the game and allow another company or organization to market it. Say Parker Brothers ... and then we see it in Wal-Mart, Target, Toy 'R US, and Meijer.

These were the options JJ said are all now being discussed for BB's 20th anniversary release.

Galak

Thanks Galak - a very interesting piece, which offers some insight into GW policy - if not surprising insight at that.

Lets be honest GW is a business and thus from a purely commercial aspect it doesn't want to risk diversifying too much. As they say sadly â€“ its all about the money â€“ but you cannot blame them here!

What we know is that 40k is where the money is, basically they have an unending supply of youngsters who will spend a fortune putting together armies and as they are 'brand orientated' will buy only GW figures but also paints/ brushes etc. 40k is more viable to get a greater return from this as you need a lot more figures and a few large models to build a single army. In BB you only really need 12 figures and your good to go!

As their heartland is younger gamers they wouldn't want to push these into a smaller franchise, they want to funnel them into a single gaming channel and thus if they marketed BB in Wal-Mart etc it could seriously damage the after market sales on 40k as there would only be a finite spend on BB. If anything they are likely to promote more board games that offer a different experience to wargaming, (I agree WQ, HQ & Talisman fit this field more than BB).

We all know BB will sell, hell I know as I sell a fair bit. We also know that if marketed it will bring in players by the dozens (Just started a Stafford league 4 weeks ago now we have 10 members and possibly 12 already

) but it cannot match the return they can get from 40k and even the potential of LOTR for that matter. Lets take for an example the average BB miniature Vs the average 40k miniature. BB miniature even if bought by every BB player they would only have 1 or possibly 2 in their set, 40K miniature on the other hand they would have 10, 20+ in a regiment and with a few different sprues could allow unique poses.

What did make me laugh was the LOTR bubble they mentioned! They still cannot see that this game generated all the interest because of the films etc and now that they have gone sales will continue to drop like lead, they are really flogging a dead horse hear with a finite life. They need to research the film aftermarket more thoroughly; otherwise this is going to hurt them more.

I actually believe option 2 is more likely to happen but the issue I have is I have seen this sort of thing happen all the time and in 9/10 circumstances is a short lived venture that eventually gets incorporated back into the main beast or piecemealed & sold off.

I actually think that they are being blinded to an obvious option 4 which could be the most viable which is to open up the licence on BB and specialist games to other manufacturers similar to what Hasbro did with D20 & D&D. This would allow companies to produce and support the game whilst paying a royalty to GW. This is a far greater profit steam than they realise as it involves little effort from a manufacturing point of view but does need regulation from licence and trade mark lawyers. It also would mean that they could retain the exclusivity of producing the main board game but cut down on the number of SKU's or even figures they would have to create!!

Either way I think the good news is that BB is still firmly in the radar and as long as we keep shouting GW cannot keep ignoring us!!