Grak and Crumbleberry

[Heff]

Joe put it so much better than me, but posted as I was composing my response

[dode74]

Well... tournament play has been what kept BB alive all this years. So perhaps trying to maintain its health above the rest of the possible styles of play would be advisable.

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that more games have been played online since the inception of FUMBBL than have been played in tournaments. FUMBBL stats go back to 2003 and were over 100,000 games a year for that year. At its peak (2007-2009) it was over 200,000 a year. Since Cyanide came along in 2009 it has been even more - well over 2 million games played on BB1 in 4 years, and even higher playrates in BB2. 2003 takes us back 13 years to pre LRB5 and the end of the BBRC. One could argue that online has kept BB alive since GW dropped it.

This post is not intended to create a pissing contest. It's merely pointing out that claiming one environment should take primacy over another for reason X is dependent on whether you think reason X is the most important reason. It's wholly subjective.

[Milo]

It's a seemingly irrelevant but complex rule here, a justified but poorly designed change to a combo there, a "not intended to be used" star player there... and some errata that players would have spotted without any difficulty.

The general image is one of a poorly conducted job, sorry. If only they had kept the LRB6 as it was, print it, and THEN start producing whatever alterations they desired in the White Dwarfs... I really, really do not understand WHY they didn't.

Hey, I get it, I do. GW does, too (I think, tho this last week does make me wonder some). Those mistakes you mentioned were all BEFORE they got some players involved. To date, we've only had input into one product, but they assure us we'll be involved in everything going forward.

But in the words of the immortal muppet Rolf, "That ship has sailed, my friend." Maybe they should have just released LRB 6 instead of trying to put their own stamp on it -- but it's done and it's not going to be changed now. So it doesn't do anyone any good to complain about what SHOULD have been.

What you can do is share your thoughts about what should happen next. I'll listen, though I can't say I'll always agree and even if I do, I could always get overruled. I'm not a rules designer, I just occasionally get to masquerade as a rule designer's conscience. But I'm saying there's a CHANCE.

[Darkson]

+1 to what Joe and Heff said.

Plus you could argue, if asthetics are going to make game rules, half the human and orc figures should have this rule.

[Manuel]

Thank Milo, I appreciate your words, really.

I hope GW listens to you and the rest of players.

[Joemanji]

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that more games have been played online since the inception of FUMBBL than have been played in tournaments. FUMBBL stats go back to 2003 and were over 100,000 games a year for that year. At its peak (2007-2009) it was over 200,000 a year. Since Cyanide came along in 2009 it has been even more - well over 2 million games played on BB1 in 4 years, and even higher playrates in BB2. 2003 takes us back 13 years to pre LRB5 and the end of the BBRC. One could argue that online has kept BB alive since GW dropped it.

This post is not intended to create a pissing contest. It's merely pointing out that claiming one environment should take primacy over another for reason X is dependent on whether you think reason X is the most important reason. It's wholly subjective.

All true dode, however GW is not interested in people playing games of Blood Bowl (physical or digital) it is interested in selling units of physical Blood Bowl games, accessories and models. In my anecdotal experience the proportion of FUMBBL and BB2 players who are going to spend money on GW products (even though they don't own any yet) is tiny to insignificant. And the proportion of tabletop players who are going to spend money on GW products (even though many already have plenty) is running close to all of them (addicts!). So yep, more games have been played online. How does that impact GW sales? Not at all. What has kept the market for physical GW products healthy? The tabletop and tournament scene. This is a slightly simplified argument of course, there has been some small crossover. But I think it paints the general picture.

[Milo]

+1 to what Joe and Heff said.

Plus you could argue, if asthetics are going to make game rules, half the human and orc figures should have this rule.

Hey, guys, I agree with you. I don't like this rule and I never have. (And I sure don't want Joe anywhere near my coffee). If I get a chance to vote up or down on this rule, you can rest assured I will vote down. I understand every point you have made and knew them all before this conversation was entered.

I'm just saying that I find the occurrence and the impact of this rule relatively minor. It won't cause you to be less than 11 players because of the Journeyman rules. And I could see some circumstances where I might want my current opponent to lose future games, if, for instance, he is ahead of me in the league rankings. And in the course of an average season, it may not ever come up at all.

Saying "I don't understand why people are so upset about this" is not the same as saying "I don't understand why people are bothered by this at all." I'm disputing the order of magnitude.

[GalakStarscraper]

And, to be honest, some level of recognition to Galak would have been a very polite gesture. Ideally he would be the one making the rules, and I am sure most of the people would trust more this obscure process.

Putting all the cards on the table, Tom has been incredibly valuable to Blood Bowl -- but he also operates a competing fantasy football miniature manufacturer. I know that Andy and James are both respectful of Tom's contributions and listen to what he has to say, but there are lots of politics in play. It's unrealistic to not acknowledge them.

I've talked to Andy about this. I was impressed he had asked me a couple of informational questions about why a certain design concept was used for LRB 6 so he could better understand the background. Even though I have NEVER used anything I've learned working with GW to profit myself ... it is still a political issue. I helped develop the Khorne team and could have had one ready for release the same week Cyanide announced it ... but my site still has no Khorne team because I helped work on it. Same thing in that I was not in control of Impact! until after I no longer had control of the rules changed for BB. So I never abused the position and would even be willing to sign an NDA ... but yeah its sticky and I get that. I've messaged everyone involved to let them know I will help as much as I'm allowed. I was allowed to help Cyanide by GW under NDA while running Impact! so who knows. I don't pretend to know the answers ... but yeah ... I would have tried to do something to stop Weeping Blades, Monstrous Mouth, Piling On and Kick Team-Mate if I could have. Those skills suggest a direction that does concern me ... but overall I do have only high hopes from what I've heard from Andy and James.

[Joemanji]

@Milo: Cool! To be fair I feel I am appropriately peeved (not much) about WB, because as you say it doesn't come up much. But I am mightily peeved at being told I shouldn't be mildly peeved at a bit of a balls up. Because the design philosophy mistake behind the rule needs to be brought to the attention of the person who we don't want to make it again.

[dode74]

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that more games have been played online since the inception of FUMBBL than have been played in tournaments. FUMBBL stats go back to 2003 and were over 100,000 games a year for that year. At its peak (2007-2009) it was over 200,000 a year. Since Cyanide came along in 2009 it has been even more - well over 2 million games played on BB1 in 4 years, and even higher playrates in BB2. 2003 takes us back 13 years to pre LRB5 and the end of the BBRC. One could argue that online has kept BB alive since GW dropped it.

This post is not intended to create a pissing contest. It's merely pointing out that claiming one environment should take primacy over another for reason X is dependent on whether you think reason X is the most important reason. It's wholly subjective.

All true dode, however GW is not interested in people playing games of Blood Bowl (physical or digital) it is interested in selling units of physical Blood Bowl games, accessories and models. In my anecdotal experience the proportion of FUMBBL and BB2 players who are going to spend money on GW products (even though they don't own any yet) is tiny to insignificant. And the proportion of tabletop players who are going to spend money on GW products (even though many already have plenty) is running close to all of them (addicts!). So yep, more games have been played online. How does that impact GW sales? Not at all. What has kept the market for physical GW products healthy? The tabletop and tournament scene. This is a slightly simplified argument of course, there has been some small crossover. But I think it paints the general picture.

This is an example of exactly what I was saying: it depends on what "reason X" you think is important. The contention was about what "kept Blood Bowl alive", not "what GW is interested in".

[birdman37]

Sorry to be the pedantic one, but as I read it, Weeping Blade can have an effect on the current game. If your victim has used an Apoth to attain the Badly Hurt, then he goes straight back into Reserves, and is available for use in the next drive. Successful use of Weeping Blades keeps him in the Dead & Injured box, and out of this game. Right?

[digger]

On a personal note I am also irritated by the "fan boys" (You know who you are) saying "You just don't like FUN, this will be fine" or "The game is supposed to be random you are just moaning" as if that is somehow a trump card and wins every argument. It is not, it is just an assertion.

I'm guessing I'm a fan boy then? Although I never said anyone doesn't like fun I said I game for fun, I did say people have moaned about everything new that's a fact they have. Not only on here I read on Twitter that some people think that GW are keeping pricing down to put 3rd parties out of business mental. And I bought the new box set, DZ and refs first stuff I've bought from GW in over ten years hardly GW fan boy.


The game is supposed to have a random element isn't it? From the weather, kick off table and random events. Isn't one of the games strong points a mix of tactics and your ability to react to something random.

GW have taken their ball back and it not gone down to well

[Bakunin]

Sorry to be the pedantic one, but as I read it, Weeping Blade can have an effect on the current game. If your victim has used an Apoth to attain the Badly Hurt, then he goes straight back into Reserves, and is available for use in the next drive. Successful use of Weeping Blades keeps him in the Dead & Injured box, and out of this game. Right?

Right

[JT-Y]

^ Wrong.

If you Apo a badly hurt result then there is no badly hurt result to use Weeping Dagger on.
Use of the Apo cancels it out.

[stashman]

But maybe the opponent dont want to use apo on a miss next game. Then the player is out