Grak and Crumbleberry

[gregory_n_white]

They play for all teams only because if you buy a thing like this and want to use the rules that come with it it's nice to be able to do that.

I have bought a lot of star player figures. Id like to be able to use them. Why cant they all play for all teams?

[Tablet]

They aren't getting a general release, they aren't intended or even expected to appear in tournaments. The expectation is that they'll get the most use as an Ogre on a team and perhaps an alternative Puggy (which was what the sculptor made that model as, several years ago for his own collection) rather than as super new Stars.

This is how I hope to use the miniatures, I'm just waiting for the next time work sends me south down the M1.....

[Joemanji]

Hi Jon,

Nice to have your input as always. My only question is: why not just get it 'right'? It doesn't take any/much extra time to cost them accurately for example. It shouldn't need a team of amateur proof readers for a professional Blood Bowl designer to notice that neither of these guys have Loner. I totally acknowledge that it doesn't 'matter' in the sense that these guys are not meant to see tournament play. But it does look a little silly.

I totally get that you have worked for GW and have friends there so your sympathies lie in that direction. But to be honest the only thing that rankles me a little about the arguments surrounding the new rules is being told that everything GW does is right and awesome and I am just a stupid pleb who doesn't understand how things work in the real world of proper business. Some of us understand Blood Bowl and real life quite well thanks and are capable of making reasonable and analytical judgements.

Ta ta!
Joe

[plasmoid]

Hi JT-Y,
I'm with Joe.
I think that given the conservative nature of this community, the response to the new rules has been spectacularly positive.
I think that releasing an underpriced, loberless, overly powerful star player available to all teams is a pretty big male chicken-up. Not everyone will get the memo.
I think there are plenty of times to be dismissive, but this (IMO) isn't one of them.
Cheers
Martin

[Rolex]

Grak & Crumbleberry were done months ago, long before any external proofreading was established.
They are just cool models FW wants to be able to sell at events like Open Days, the rules are an afterthought really. They do have quite a bank of such models and every year some go away and new ones come along, for all the systems FW makes models for.

Why the rules, so? I can't see the need for them. Just make the minis.

They aren't getting a general release, they aren't intended or even expected to appear in tournaments. The expectation is that they'll get the most use as an Ogre on a team and perhaps an alternative Puggy (which was what the sculptor made that model as, several years ago for his own collection) rather than as super new Stars.

They play for all teams only because if you buy a thing like this and want to use the rules that come with it it's nice to be able to do that. They likely should be Loners (typos do happen). Kick is just a bit of something for anyone who wants to give these two a whirl in casual games.

Why not say that? "Optional Rules" or something like that? The only place where it is said these guy are not official all over the internet is your post.
That takes a little bit away from your credibility.

I eagerly await your angry responses, it is quite literally why I come here.

Here it comes (super extra angry up to 11 as requested ):
The sculptor that made these models did a good job. The guy that wrote the rules for these models did NOT a good job.
If produce a job of this quality in my line of work I will end on a line at a hiring hall very soon.
I am very envious of these guys that can do publish things like these and keep their jobs.
They have it easy.

Thanks.

You are welcome.
Thank you for being a target for the frustration of the community.
I appreciate it.
You are doing a better job then the guys at GW.
They should be paying you.

[Manuel]

The only thing I can really say is that I know some future releases will be better, the mistakes they've made can be easily fixed, and that they've seemed willing to take constructive feedback and improve the processes. Still clearly a work in progress, though.

Mhhh... sorry, but I see no reason to trust that. They seem to be making the game "more fun and random" on purpouse. And given that the goblin roster is one of the next ones to be published, this is something to be feared rather than expected.

Also anyone with 10 matches under his belt would have noticed the lack of loner, and maybe even hinted the obvious low price of that combo, let alone its use in teams like khemri or lizardmen.

If cost is not to be used... I see no point to include it at all. Let's all play narratively, like in AoS! Let's wear costumes of our favourite positionals and have bonuses for role playing!

Things can be done right. And they haven't so far. And this time no one can answer "stop critizing and do something positive and constructive yourself", as the community has offered free help multiple times, and being rejected on every occassion.

[howabe]

I eagerly await your angry responses

More disappointment than anger on my end at likely missing out on some nice looking models.

As for the rules, any unofficial league/tourney etc. can simply not allow them, or alter the stats/price to what they see fit.
Any idea on the likelihood of GW enforcing their legality in anything they run?

[Milo]

The only thing I can really say is that I know some future releases will be better, the mistakes they've made can be easily fixed, and that they've seemed willing to take constructive feedback and improve the processes. Still clearly a work in progress, though.

Mhhh... sorry, but I see no reason to trust that. They seem to be making the game "more fun and random" on purpouse. And given that the goblin roster is one of the next ones to be published, this is something to be feared rather than expected.

...

Things can be done right. And they haven't so far. And this time no one can answer "stop critizing and do something positive and constructive yourself", as the community has offered free help multiple times, and being rejected on every occassion.

Well, having heard back from them now, I can echo what JT-Y said, above, about these being produced long ago before the playtest review group was formed. So again, I say, they've made mistakes, but hopefully the process is better going forward.

I get what you're saying, I do. But they can't fix mistakes made in the past (except via errata, which they've done). And I know that they have not rejected free help on every occasion.

[Deathrain]

I eagerly await your angry responses

More disappointment than anger on my end at likely missing out on some nice looking models.

As for the rules, any unofficial league/tourney etc. can simply not allow them, or alter the stats/price to what they see fit.
Any idea on the likelihood of GW enforcing their legality in anything they run?

Maybe even on the contrary. Note that most events up to this point (like the one at Warhammer world) up to this point specificaly allowed the base game, DZ1, and sometimes teams of legend. No flat out "all official GW material". These two guys will probably be in DZ2, which isn't great, but a chance to revisit them (in which case there is real potential here). So, what should the comunity do? Say they are unhappy in a polite manner to keep the good will of the team and more importantly motivate them to listen. Communicate how these guys can be fixed (I don't have anywhere near the experience with BB to make these calls, but from this thread I'd say add loner to both, increase price by 10-20.000, limit them to apropriate teams like Human, Ogres, and Halflings).

This is a screwup, but there is lots of room to fix it and the new team might be inclined to do so with the right motivation.

[Rolex]

.....
Things can be done right. And they haven't so far. And this time no one can answer "stop critizing and do something positive and constructive yourself", as the community has offered free help multiple times, and being rejected on every occassion.

Truth to be told, they have done quite some things right, and to that I give them credit.
The kept the prices very reasonable.
The new league rules are IMO very good even if not perfect.
They let the teams yet to be published official.
They have changed very little of the rules.
They have listened and answered to comments from the community.

They have done a lot better than I expected, so far.
They have also done some bad things.

Up to now Grak and Crumbleberry are one of the worst.

Since they listen to feedback I think it is a good thing that we let them know we are NOT pleased by them.
So that they do better.

[GalakStarscraper]

JT-Y

I love the enthusiasm of Andy and James. But at the same time ... I honestly don't think its too much to ask for anything rules related to be something that would have made it pass a simple first review by anyone with a clue. It really is meaninglessly how long ago it was put in motion.

No anger ... no raging. Just want the rules of the game (even throw away fun ones) to match how great the GW team is working on the game. I do not think it is that large of a task. They are moving in the right direction by letting non-GW people have a look to help them with the blinders they have which is awesome ... its just ... how hard if you knew this was coming for months would it have been to let those guys who are clearly able to catch things you missed to take a look.

I think that is what disappoints (not angers) folks the most ... its was SO easy to not happen and it seems to show that they do not care (when I and you both know that is not the case).

You come in and bash us for a wanting a simple level of caring 1/100th the amount of effort spent during the CRP development. Yes the GW team is great ... but your reasoning why this is a non-issue doesn't hold to even a fleeting glace of logic and reason.

I think this team could keep the game great and make it better ... but they clearly need some non-GW experienced BB eyes on anything with rules attached. I saw this during the CRP development ... the GW playtesting or logic doesn't carry well beyond their doors ... that was why the BBRC for whatever flaws it has helped make the game better.

[Sandwich]

Question I don't think anyone has asked: is Kick Team-Mate a new skill that I can give to a player?

Follow-up question: would it stack with Kick??

[Rolex]

Question I don't think anyone has asked: is Kick Team-Mate a new skill that I can give to a player?

Follow-up question: would it stack with Kick??

@JT-Y: See?!? This is what happens when rules are written without thinking!

[Manuel]

Mmmmh...

Weeping dagger: completely unnecessary. Matching aesthetical criteria with rules was already a bad idea when Khorne was designed for Cyanide, and it still is.

Use of RR for PO: introduces new mechanic when there were many other ways to approach the "problem" they wanted to solve. "Problem" that was only present in perpetual or very long leagues. No deep thought on how it would affect resurrection tournaments.

Regarding they accepting free help... well, I hope you are not referring to Galak and the LRB6. If that story didn't end tragically it was mainly because of 1 man's altruism.

Have they contacted someone this time? Well... secret seems to be the norm. And this hypothetical experienced coaches would have been ignored anyway, as it seems.

The best thing they could do is ask for a new, public and open BBRC, and let them update the rulebook as the community demands it. And restrict themselves to miniature production.

[Milo]

Question I don't think anyone has asked: is Kick Team-Mate a new skill that I can give to a player?

Follow-up question: would it stack with Kick??

Is Throw Team-mate?