GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

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VoodooMike
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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by VoodooMike »

dode74 wrote:"Accessibility" is the bane of the non-casual gamer.
If the Blood Bowl community is any indicator, so too is rationality and education. Non-casual gamers have a tendency to imagine that in order for games to have the potential for intricate strategy and play they need to be ridiculously esoteric, and that simply isn't true - neither chess nor go have complicated rules but the games provide infinite possibility.

BB is, unfortunately, likely to be mired in, and eventually dragged down, by the unwillingness of anyone to apply any sort of modern thinking to it. It may be better to let it be and create a modern equivalent to replace it among new gamers all while allowing the old guard to imagine it will act as a funnel into their dated favourite.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by spubbbba »

GW have recently made a tentative step back into the board game world with their releases of Assassinorum: Execution Force and The Horus Heresy: Betrayal at Calth. However with respective price tags of £75 and £95 I suspect the vast majority of customers bought them for the models rather than the game.

They may well do the same with BB, release it with some nice new plastic models and a simplified board game (that may be the reason for the change in board size). They could put the crp rules back on the site as well. That way they might try to appeal to people to buy it as a self contained game and attract new customers or nostalgic ones who want to play it as a self contained game. Us old whiny vets will get it for the models and if the simple board game sucks we can thrown that stuff out.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by plasmoid »

Not all complexity is good.
I get what javascrybe and Mike are saying.

As a very minor example, I had no problem with Cyanide removing the choice part of certain skills. And I get why they did it. Sure it Applied to all skills it would wreck some of them. But those could be removed or rewritten. I get that it is an "added layer of tactics" to sometimes not use Stand Firm or Side Step, or not use Dodge when you're being blocked close to the sideline. But hey, those are pretty good skills. You'd still pick them if you knew they we're "always on".

I think a lot of fat could be trimmed off the game.
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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by Darkson »

Dumbed down? No thanks.

And if they find BB complex then they can't be GW players - BB is one of the easiest GW games to learn.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by javascrybe »

Darkson wrote:Dumbed down? No thanks.

And if they find BB complex then they can't be GW players - BB is one of the easiest GW games to learn.
That speaks volumes on the openness of the community. Let's talk again on BB's 50th anniversary when the kids rushing right now through the doors to play BB finally take over. :)

As ddancer says, "I respect your opinion. I do not agree with it." But in return I don't find it very respectful of "all the people not smart/dedicated/esoteric enough to be GW players".

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by Darkson »

Many people f'ind BB easy to pick up.
Many people don't like BB.
Many people like BB as it is.
Many people wish BB hadn't been simplified in the change from LRB4 to LRB5.

Why alienate the players already playing the game to make a simpler version that may or may not appeal to non-players.

If BB is to long and complex there's already a quicker, simpler (IMO) sports game out there, Dreadball. Try them on that, but don't try to force BB-lite on me.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by Olaf the Stout »

javascrybe wrote:
dode74 wrote:"Accessibility" is the bane of the non-casual gamer. Sorry, but I disagree with a lot of the above.
I understand. Not saying "very accessible" or even (god help us) "dumbed down". But attracting new players to a community is NEVER a bad thing, and the fact of the matter is right now that I haven't played Blood Bowl with new players since my old league disbanded. All the players I convinced to play "just one game" stopped after that. And they are NOT casual gamers by ANY stretch of the imagination.

It's incredible just how much of Blood bowl has been balanced over the years by "adding another die roll" or a chart... Jump Up, Pro, Dauntless, the Injury table, Really Stupid, Foul Appearance, etc. Adding complexity, in sum. It's at the very least a "hard sell" for newcomers. Of course I know all of the rules, I've played them enough, but it's not about me, it's about my son (<--shameless emotional appeal).

I'll buy the new box, obviously, whatever they put in it. If it's the exact same Blood Bowl, I'll just marvel at the figures, alone. If it "freshens up", I have a shot at having a new league sprout up at my local gaming store. Or starting a family league once my two sons reach 10.
Personally if I was teaching someone how to play the game, I would not worry about giving them the rulebook to play. I’d just let them pick a team (out of a choice of Orcs or Humans) and get them playing. They don’t need to know how the Pro, Jump Up or Guard skill works, because I wouldn’t be introducing them to additional skills in the first few games. We’d just stick to the ones that the team starts with, which are Block, Dodge, Sure Hands, Pass and Catch (probably not use a Troll or Ogre to begin with).

Sure Hands, Pass and Catch all basically work the same way, you can re-roll a failed roll related to that skill. Dodge is similar, but also has the defensive ability when being blocked. Block is different, but still pretty simple to understand. If this symbol comes up on the Block dice and you have Block you are ok. If you don’t have Block you fall down.

Don’t worry about the Kick-Off table to begin with, or weather. Kick to them so they get to start on offence (after helping them with their offensive set-up), roll scatter and bounce and let them play.

Explain the different actions – Move, Block, Blitz, Pass, Hand-Off and Foul and give a bit of advice about moving players to assist Blocks, who to Blitz with, when you might want to foul.

There are 4 stats for each player. Movement is simple, it’s how many squares you can move (probably don’t worry about GFIs for the first game). Everyone is Strength 3, so it only matters when blocking with or against Black Orcs. Everyone is Agility 3 apart from Black Orcs. Armour is how hard you are to hurt. The higher the number the better.

Don’t show new players the Agility table, with a +1 for dodging, etc. Just explain that all the players on the field (apart from Black Orcs) dodge away from someone next to them, pick up the ball, throw the ball at the shortest range or catch a pass on a 3+. If a player is next to them when pick up the ball, throw the ball or catch a pass or are next to the square they are dodging to, or if they are passing at the next highest range the roll is a 4+. And so on for 2 players, etc.

Block dice can take a little getting used to, but they are rolled often enough that most people will pick it up very quickly. Assists are probably one of the harder things to understand, but aren’t too complex without the Guard skill being used.

Injuries are stunned, KO’d or Cas (don’t worry about BH, SI or Dead for now).

Play 1 drive (up to 8 turns) with them on offence and then let them play defence. Once they’ve got the hang of the basic mechanics then you can explain things like levelling players up, Kick-Off tables, weather, etc. This can stop new players from being overwhelmed by all the rules at once.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by Olaf the Stout »

Darkson wrote:Many people f'ind BB easy to pick up.
Many people don't like BB.
Many people like BB as it is.
Many people wish BB hadn't been simplified in the change from LRB4 to LRB5.

Why alienate the players already playing the game to make a simpler version that may or may not appeal to non-players.

If BB is to long and complex there's already a quicker, simpler (IMO) sports game out there, Dreadball. Try them on that, but don't try to force BB-lite on me.
Can you jog my memory about some of the changes from LRB4 to LRB5 that simplified the game? My memory is honestly struggling to remember what they might have been.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Olaf the Stout wrote:Can you jog my memory about some of the changes from LRB4 to LRB5 that simplified the game? My memory is honestly struggling to remember what they might have been.
My old man memory is getting foggy ... here were some of them (and I'm not saying they made the game BETTER just simpler (due to speed of playing, less dice rolls, or deletion of rules).
1) Removal of Big Guy separate rules
2) Removal of IGMEOY
3) Single roll for Casualties (not two different rolls)
4) Removal of roll for Thick Skull

Those 4 come to mind off the top of my head ... there were more changes ... but those were done in the name of simplification.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by javascrybe »

Darkson wrote:If BB is to long and complex there's already a quicker, simpler (IMO) sports game out there, Dreadball. Try them on that, but don't try to force BB-lite on me.
You got me. That's exactly what I set out to do this morning. Not make Blood Bowl cater less to an "elite few", but really dumb it down to "snakes and ladder" level so my grandma can play. After all, some of the things I mention and I hope they do for this edition (re-writing the rules so they are actually easier to understand, getting rid of some corner cases, offering an optional but official shorter variant) are clearly an obstruction to the really smart people having the game to themselves.

As for Dreadball, I played, I kind of like it, but it lacks the charm and appeal of Blood Bowl. No Dice. (although DB has a nasty current of players refusing to evolve the ruleset and balance that makes the whole game and community suffer.... wait a minute... ;) ).
Olaf the Stout wrote:<snip>
Thanks for the tips (seriously, this should be required reading for people trying to teach BB). I probably taught one or two dozen players since I've started playing (and "hooked" about a third). But even that's not working anymore: people (under 40 :) ) I meet want quicker games, sleeker rules, and don't have my affection for BB to balance that. That's what I'm saying. At my LGS, Guild Ball is all the rage right now, because it plays quicker... (but it lacks League rules, and that leaves me cold)

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by Darkson »

I agree with the lack of evolution on DB, but its not the players - its Jake trying to do to much at one (DB, Dead zone Redux, DungeonbSaga and more). A rules review from Jake and a committee has been "confirmed ng soon" for 6 months plus.

I've found GB much more complicated than BB, so I'm confused by people having problems with BB but happy playing GB. :-?

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Really wishing I was a bigger company now. Ah sigh.

I wait to see where they go with the game. I get streamlining ... I'm working slowly on streamlining the rulebook for Elfball based on all the information we received from tournaments and leagues over the years to make it a solid 60 to 75 minute game. The trick to streamlining is not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Dilute the game down too much and its lacks the depth that grab players like BB has. Heck throwing out the background in the CRP was a huge mistake because that is what grabbed me about the game years ago. I stayed with BB all these years because of that background. If my first exposure to BB was something like the CRP ... I would never have gotten into everything I have with BB and FF style products (which I know for some would have been a blessing.)

Blood Bowl is the only 2 hour game I still play ... that is because of its depth of strategy and background ... I'm not sure short of BB7s rules that you can get that time table down for the game with played FtF.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by javascrybe »

GalakStarscraper wrote:Really wishing I was a bigger company now. Ah sigh.

I wait to see where they go with the game. I get streamlining ... I'm working slowly on streamlining the rulebook for Elfball based on all the information we received from tournaments and leagues over the years to make it a solid 60 to 75 minute game. The trick to streamlining is not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Dilute the game down too much and its lacks the depth that grab players like BB has. Heck throwing out the background in the CRP was a huge mistake because that is what grabbed me about the game years ago. I stayed with BB all these years because of that background. If my first exposure to BB was something like the CRP ... I would never have gotten into everything I have with BB and FF style products (which I know for some would have been a blessing.)

Blood Bowl is the only 2 hour game I still play ... that is because of its depth of strategy and background ... I'm not sure short of BB7s rules that you can get that time table down for the game with played FtF.
This.

Some things they can't touch, because it's what makes Blood Bowl ... Blood Bowlesque. The block dice, a lot of the pitche's features, TTM, team personalities, a bit of random events madness, it's really where the charm is and what sets it apart from Kaosball, Dreadball, Guild Ball, Slaughter Ball, and all the others (some of which are very good games). Personnally, what got me in was the silly commentators describing the rule book.

Time is often "spent" where you don't expect. I've "timed" games...the actual playing isn't that long (maybe some Caged Dauntless Blocks resulting in injuries and pushes). It's player setup (twice on some Kickoffs), Inducement selection (amidst an impressive list of them), resolving some wacky combos (scatters and TTM sometimes take forever), Riots and Quick snaps, etc. A lot of those are sped up tremendously by "know the rulebook by heart", which is why veterans are typically the only ones able to "can" a game in 2h (and play a second in the night).

Trouble is, a lot of players never come in or leave way before becoming vets (or after becoming parents, like me... :) )

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by rolo »

javascrybe is right. Blood Bowl has a really steep learning curve. It's tough for a new player to get involved, especially if "getting involved" means spending $80-150 on a new team, learning a dense and sometimes unintuitive rule set, and then spending the next few weeks watching your shiny new team get dismantled by the veterans in the league. It's not even the first game that's hard for a newbie, it's that fourth or fifth game when "That guy" invites him over to play his TV2200 Dwarves. Every league has that guy.

Practically speaking, I'm not sure how Blood Bowl can be simplified and made more newbie-friendly without removing important aspects which make the game Blood Bowl. That's a job for a game designer. Will GW be able to thread the needle? I'd have been more optimistic before Age of Sigmar. But we'll see. Not like anyone from GW is asking my opinion.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by ddancer »

These are your opinions. These are not the experience for everyone.

If it is too complex for the people you are teaching, as others have said - stick to the very core basics. Introduce the other stuff once the grasp that. Amazingly, it's one of the really interesting things that the BB2 video game offers. The Campaign gets you started then introduces rules a few at a time.

I again, see no reason to take out the wackiness of a ball bouncing around in a scrum full of players. :) That's some hilarity, right there. The rolls and the randomness are what make it unlike most GW games - which seem to be a sure thing based on army builds, in my opinion.

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