Sukubus Team

[bound for glory]

please, indeed...
you need to really look at what you've posted and how these posts come across. you are way over the top in your defense of these figures.
back them. who cares? just understand that this is'nt blood bowl, or fantasy football. what i mean is, there should be a line. a figure of a women feeling herself up has no place in the game, no matter which way you cut it.
i will now call this quits.

[Virral]

JT-Y, I agree that saying youd ban anyone playing them from your event is a total overreaction, but so are your comments. You are being needlessly hostile and confrontational, and you seem to think that your wife liking these figures (good for her) is the same as saying noone, male or female, is allowed to dislike them. I am a man and I don't like them, I'd go further and say I find the one grabbing her tit fairly offensive. Am I not allowed my opinion because your wife thinks they are fine?

[Gaixo]

BFG, would you ban a team that included one of Greebo's topless female models? I've met coaches that found both Shadowforge's female orcs and Gaspez' pygmies to be offensive on racial grounds; would you ban them? How about something as common as team names that include sexual innuendo?

It seems a bit of a slippery slope to start banning coaches simply because the organizer or an opponent takes offense at some aspect of their team.

[bound for glory]

well, i don't hide the fact that my event is mostly aimed at new players, many of witch are younger kids. so theres that...
sexual names? hav'nt had a problem there. but i can say i would "advise" a coach to not go too far with a really off color name, just because of the youngsters and the parents that show up with the kids. mean to say, i have enough on my plate what with just getting players to come up every year. i don't need the aggrivation of someones idea of a cleverly named team driving off someone else when what we all, hopefully want, is to play blood bowl. if having a piggishly named team is more important, than my event probably is'nt for him, anyway.
gaspez figures arn't feeling themselves up. 'nuff said.

[Hucker73]

@JT-Y: You have more experience in miniature production than I do, so I apologise for my statement about problems casting the teams. I still think the tails coming off during normal handling during games will occur though.

Disagree that I can't call something sexist because I'm a man. It's actually sexist to discriminate against me due to gender in that way. By your logic, I couldn't call someone for being racist against black people because I'm white.

@Ruthy: Glad you like the miniatures. Hope the project funds and you have fun painting and playing with the minis.

I do find one of the sculpts offensive. I found it overtly sexual in a game intended for 11 year olds. Sorry you find my opinion offensive, but it is my opinion and you are welcome to disagree with me.

@People banning this team: Why this team only? Only 1 offensive miniature (in my opinion). Other miniatures out there with comparable levels of nudity or suggestive poses. Are they banned too? If not, why not? Where is the line and why does this team in particular cross it?

@The artists creating this team: Hope your project funds. Hope you create more teams in the future. Good luck with all your future endeavours.

Think I had more to say, but I'm too tired to remember it.

Thread on GW no longer hosting the rules of our beloved game: 6 pages.
This thread: 7 pages and counting. No entiendo...

[JT-Y]

Am I not allowed my opinion because your wife thinks they are fine?

Of course you are. My wife liking them merely goes to show that the assumption made that women should be offended is a wrong one because, shock horror, it isn't a universal truth. And it goes a bit further than that, because okay some of the girls who come here don't like them, and some wives don't, but these very models have, after showing them the renders on Saturday night, got several of her friends who otherwise had fcuk all interest in the hobby, interested. It won't last, but those models have done more to normalize this daft hobby of ours to them than any amount of steroid bull barbarian dudes ever would.

I've also said they don't appeal to me and I'd not normally want to paint them. They're good, but they don't fit my take on WFB or BB imagery, and that's what I shoot for in the teams I paint.
Would I have a problem seeing them opposite me? That would be silly.

The hostility comes from the fact that some posters have mistaken personal dislike for a moral high ground assumed due to an outmoded notion of what women should or should not be offended by.

And I didn't say that a man can't call out sexism. What I am saying though is that a man can't object on the generalized grounds that women should find it sexist without himself being somewhat dismissive of the very women he is presuming to defend; let people decide themselves, don't decide it for them. And don't presume that all women should judge such things the same.

As for the tails, resin offers more flex than lead or tin pewter. Both can and will break, but in this case I think resin is the better option.

Finally, I just can't get alongside the threat of excluding gamers from gaming based on all of that. It is elitist.

[Fassbinder75]

The hostility comes from the fact that some posters have mistaken personal dislike for a moral high ground assumed due to an outmoded notion of what women should or should not be offended by.

Well 'outmoded' is merely your opinion, and you're framing these outbursts against that. Some women could be offended, some might not. As a mostly confused and clueless man, I tend to take my opinions based on the beliefs of the women around me and I expect others are probably doing that as well.

My natural reaction is to label any man who uses a team like this as a 'saddo', but I wonder if that is a valid one. I think intellectually, objectification of either sex is demeaning, and I'm well aware that women engage in it as well at times - although it tends to come across as silly, not seedy.

The minis that are playing football are fine, the ones that are trying to get men hard... should really be playing blood bowl.

[sann0638]

Have resisted so far (and probably should do so some more), but here we go. All my opinion.

These models are no worse than the female dwarves, the silvanian elves and a few other naked/semi-naked teams. None of those are banned from use, and it seems unlikely that these would actually be too, if someone turned up with them, though if I were playing against a minor (and I'm planning to take my son to a tournament) I would feel embarrassed to be using them.

However, and without wishing to go off topic too much, the most regularly potentially offensive commentary/team-naming in BB is use of the word gay. There are 2,000 NAF members, say 1,000 tournament goers. I'm no mathematician, but I would say at least some of those would be gay, and usually less easy to identify than women/ethnic minorities. If people want to worry about something, worry about that.

Back on topic, from 5 years ago: http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 23&t=25409

All the best,
Mike

PS the BB community Facebook discussion on this seems to have disappeared. Odd.

[connexion]

One more thing.
As someone who has experience of the two industries of miniature casting and of printing in 3d these renders will print out very well. Better than most that flashed around and attract fawning admiration. Some masters may need reinforcement to correct shrinkage but that's the norm. And they'll cast well in resin.

This being said, I stand corrected and withdraw any arguments I had concerning the technical aspects of these miniatures. If someone with expertise in the field says the designs are safe, who am I to say otherwise?

[connexion]

Please. Explain how I should be happy to learn that your morals must dictate the behaviours of others?

I don't like these mini's. The sculptor knows that. They do not appeal to me. But I'll stand up for her right to sculpt them, and for others right to enjoy them, to death.

Voltaire should have played Blood Bowl...

+1

[J_Bone]

My only issue with these types of female miniatures is that I don't like minis that are posed as if they're just posing and not playing. I feel the same way about male miniatures. If Willys had made all of their Amazons in poses that look like they were running around, pushing opponents away, or leaping for the ball I'd totally buy them as they are great sculpts but there are too many gratuitous (and unoriginal) poses where it seems they were more interested in showing off tits and ass.

Now, I'm not offended by that and even think it's pretty tame but I'd rather companies put out strong looking, action posed female figures that look badass.

[Waldorf28]

However, and without wishing to go off topic too much, the most regularly potentially offensive commentary/team-naming in BB is use of the word gay. There are 2,000 NAF members, say 1,000 tournament goers. I'm no mathematician, but I would say at least some of those would be gay, and usually less easy to identify than women/ethnic minorities. If people want to worry about something, worry about that.

I agree Sann. I work as a teacher in a UK Secondary school, and the use of the word "gay" as a pejorative is rife. I always pick people up on it. At the UKBBL where I am Commissioner we had a clamp down on team and player names that were homophobic (it was usually the Elves...) and everyone responded really well. We have one or two team names (not homophobic) I would in retrospect have clamped down on, but by and large, when you bring these things to people's attention they *do* understand how something they don't personally find offensive might be construed as such by someone else. Fortunately when you are a Commissioner you can impose standards. I appreciate that this is harder to do with the BB community at large, but I see no harm whatsoever with issues like these being discussed, even if they do appear to make some characters overly emotional.

[voyagers_uk]

I'd rather companies put out strong looking, action posed female figures that look badass.

+1 from me, give me tough female players that look like they could kick my ass and I would finally play amazons.

[TheDancingClown]

The hostility comes from the fact that some posters have mistaken personal dislike for a moral high ground assumed due to an outmoded notion of what women should or should not be offended by.

I have gone back over this thread and I think there is only one post in which someone suggests that we should consider who else might be offended by these figures. It is a recurring argument in your posts on this thread so I thought I would bring it up. Most of the dislike on this thread was for personal reasons, including myself.

I have been following this thread as it has progressed and it has made me re-evaluate. At first I applauded the organisers who would not allow these models at their tournament but I realise this may be a bit of an overreaction. I would like to see tournament attendees have a bit of understanding and respect with regards to potentially offensive models and team names (or even T-Shirt slogans), especially at those tournaments aimed at younger players, and quite frankly if anyone has the attitude that they can do whatever they want because they are not offended by it or are an adult then I'd be happy if they stayed at home. One of the things I love about this country is the understanding and tolerance most of us have to others with different ideals. If a tournament organiser asked me to refrain from bringing in alcohol, or provided only vegetarian meal options, I think that is perfectly reasonable. If I don't like it then I have the option to stay at home, or make my own tournament with the rules that I believe in.

It has been good for me to see that people do like the miniatures. They are not to my taste and I would have liked to see them tweaked (no pun intended) but if people like them as they are then I can accept that and I am happy they have models that appeal to them.

Personally I have no idea about prejudices. It is such a grey area but JT-Y has it nailed. Assuming the moral high ground based on the assumption of the sensibilities of others is definitely the wrong thing to do. Much of the grey area comes from people thinking they should be offended and complaining without really knowing why. Unfortunately those people who may be thinking they are doing a good deed are actually doing more harm. I think it is important to listen if someone says they are offended and to change your behaviour (without changing your own ideals) to make that person comfortable even if you can't understand why they might find something offensive.

I am sorry Laia and Ian's project has been swept into a lengthy discussion that doesn't really reflect the models and I am glad that they are getting support from backers.

[Digger Goreman]

"From the discernment of "this" and "that", a host of demons appear...."

Huang Po