Sukubus Team

[Wifflebat]

Devil's Advocate:

And I am making an assumption here, but there has got to be a market for this type of figure if these types of models keep being made, right?

Devil's Assistant Advocate:

If there is, and it helps keep the game alive, that's great. But if you buy them, please understand that if you bring them to my house, and my small daughter sees them, I will tell her why she's never allowed to date somebody who'd like them.

[burgun824]

That is completely fair. These teams appeal to me because I admire the more provocative nature of them. However, I have reserved purchase on any of these types of teams because I have an 8 year old daughter that I would hate to have to explain why her father has something like that. So I COMPLETELY understand.

I guess, if I'm being 100% honest, I only get a little hot at this topic and how people respond to it because of the fact that I find the figures appealing on some level. I don't like being made to feel like I'm some sort of pervert or creeper because I don't feel as though I have impure intentions. I would absolutely hate to think that anything I did in the presence of a female would have made them feel uncomfortable in that way. Hence the reason I would never bring the team outside of my own residence if I did own one.

But seriously...they are naked female figures in ridiculous poses. What's the big deal if they're out there for sale?

[Dr. Von Richten]

I like them, and I think the issue of 'sexist mini's' is generally blown way out of proportion. There are some pretty 'hunky' male mini's out there as well; GW Norse for one, Gaspez Norse and Chaos Dwarfs, Greebo Norse (pretty much any Norse team, really). Besides, most women I know do have a sense of humour and don't take it so seriously.

Just because a woman has a sense of humour doesn't stop these minis being sexist, or offensive. Make no mistake, sexism is serious, regardless of whether you think it's important or not.

Don't worry, I'm very aware that sexism is a serious problem, and I don't think it is unimportant at all. I just don't believe everything of an overtly sexualized nature in public view is problematic and offensive by default.

I don't have a problem with the GestapOrcs either, even though with my family history, I well could have. I just ain't so easily offended and have a high tolerance for non-PC things, as long as they're done with a sense of humour and not too seriously.

[Glowworm]

I have no wish to own this team, because of the models, they look impractical to use, how do you place prone (was going to say lay down.....) some of them, either prone or stunned? they are impractical in the extreme. They hold no appeal to me whatsoever.....

Also, tempest is a good friend of mine, if she is "uncomfortable" (to Paraphrase) with them then there's a problem as she's a level headed reasonable person...

We as a community should be trying to encourage new blood, most Tournament coaches in the UK are aware that we have a group of kids from a school who now attend BB tournament on a regular basis, are we going to make tournaments "Adults only"? with teams being age restricted? not the way forward.

Finally, for all the above reasons and because of the nature of the tournament I run, these models would not be welcome at Crumb-Bowl, anyone bringing them would be asked to use a different set of models, failing that, there's the door!

And Tempest's post sums up why I have yet to buy and Amazon team even though I love the play style.

Buy the Nuns from Shadowforge!! great models, very thematic and the positionals are all easily identifiable

(or just borrow mine.....)

[DixonCider]

as I have 2 dark elf teams I will be skipping these. maybe for use as Vampires they would work

[Steam Ball]

Devil's Advocate:

And I am making an assumption here, but there has got to be a market for this type of figure if these types of models keep being made, right?

Yes. You may have heard about a skirmish game named Infinity. Now and then they do resculpts or repackaging or both. Recently the Interventors (hackers of the Nomad faction) got a new box with resculpts and extras: 1 male, 1 female, 2 new assist robots. Of the previous two blisters, the male got discontinued, the female stays with the old sculpt. And she is clothed. It sells. Just like the furry doctor Daktari that drove nuts some people, was officially declared one of the top sellers, and is still for sale after other "new" box, where her slot got a resculpt to appease the critics (the other 3 minis are just repacks of the blisters, that got discontinued).

Or watch some TV ads. Things "work" even if we pretend or try to move on. Just like scientific tests discover "surprising" things. We are just monkeys living in too cold zones and with better tools. It also allows me to undertand why other, non sex related, things "progress" as they do.

[Fassbinder75]

I like fantasy football minis, not sexual fantasy football minis. They're rubbish.

[Virral]

I wouldnt buy these regardless as this style holds no real interest for me. The only one I find actually offensive is the one bending over, and that only because she is inexplicably fondling herself... beyond that I can appreciate why others would like/hate this team but it doesnt strike me as worse than several others already out there. I really just think they are silly to be honest!

[DarthBLU]

This reminds me of porn. Nobody watches porn and then it sells. I'm sure this will fund. We'll see

[Hucker73]

I don't like the sculpts so far. Firstly, as the majority think, the overly sexual attire and poses make me sad. Secondly, as someone else pointed out, translating the computer sculpts as they are to a functional miniature is going to be impossible. The thin spikes wont work, the poses could prove difficult / problematic to cast (coughNecromAmazonscough) and the tails will all snap off in the post during delivery. Thirdly, I don't like the theme of the team.

That said, there are other teams / female BB miniatures out there that are just as stripper-riffic as these which haven't copped this much flack / hate / negativity, so let's cut this first time sculptor some slack. If we are going to form a 'no more stripper miniatures' pitchforks and torches mob*, lets be even handed. Difficult to blame a new bloodbowl sculptor for looking at the current available miniatures from other companies and joining in with the rest. This team may be the straw that broke the camel's back, but there's plenty out there already.

Also the porno poses do actually fit in with the theme of the team. Seduction demons using sex to distract the opposition does justify the poses. Could see this team being played as a proxy nurgle team - foul appearance and disturbing presence working for different reasons (although I haven't figured out how Nurgle's Rot translates).

Will I back the campaign? No. Do I expect the campaign to fund? Yes, because some people will love these sculpts. (Which is sad for a variety of reasons, but there are worse things happening in the world)

Lets keep our criticisms civil and constructive and hope the next team they sculpt is better for it. My tl:dr feedback: 1) More football / sport poses and clothing / armour, 2) Make spikes and tails thicker and practical and 3) Please no more stripper / porno poses. Thanks.

*I'm all for it, but I don't own a pitchfork or a scythe. I do have a hoe, but frankly that's just going to send mixed messages...

[Okri]

Sorry, some sexism accusations for this team seems really unfair to me. The couple of artists (yes, a man and a woman) that are very hard working on this project don’t deserve that.

I think most of the critics came with only 2 images seen on this forum. The team is progressing on Facebook for the crowdfunding campaign and I'm sure it is great when it will be finally presented. Meanwhile, I recommend you visiting the Sukubus Studio website for they really beautiful illustrations, far away from any sexism concept:

http://www.sukubusstudio.com

[TheDancingClown]

If just one image is perceived as sexist then I think criticism is still fair even if the other 15 are more suitable, and women can be sexist too. However, I think most of the constructive criticism came about from people feeling uncomfortable using the models (both men and women) especially in a public tournament. I think there are a lot of constructive and well thought out comments in this thread with advice so it is good for the artists to read, even if they don't take any of it on board.

[Milo]

I'm actually sorry that this thread has so much dislike for this team, and I don't like to pile on, but when people use the same justifications over and over for why art like this in our hobby is OK, I can't resist. I hope your friend keeps making art and keeps an open mind to any critiques he gets of it!

This is a great post, open, reasonable, and fair.

I personally think that some of the minis are good (I like several of the poses, although I prefer less outright nudity), some are not so good. I don't need my minis grabbing their bits during a game. I'm a big fan of the Hasslefree Kalee model and most of the Sylvanian models, but more for the posing and general proportions, not the nudity. (I plan to greenstuff a bikini on my Kalee.) I agree with several of the comments about sexism, but I also am not going to get so offended at a couple of scantily-clad minis for a game I play that I would be willing to consider quitting the game entirely -- that seems like a gross overreaction.

[connexion]

While maintaining my opinions stated above (unimaginative design and concept, plus the foreseeable casting issues), and realising that this is veering off-topic...

For all the nay-sayers complaining about female nudity in the game, how they wouldn't like their kids playing against such team, etc I'd like to give you a friendly reminder that the starting point of BB (and other FF games) is a truckload of "the old ultraviolence" (to quote Alex DeLarge). Not only is this actively encouraged but also, in game background, the players themselves are humurously described as raving lunatic foaming psychopaths etc and glorified as such. But this is a whole can of worms to be opened in another thread.

Bottom line:
- this team concept is unimaginative
- it is bound to have technical issues
- it may be offensive/unsuited for some people (especially young children) so I might exercise discretion when playing with it but otherwise have no problems with the sexyness/cheesecake (heck, I own the Silvania team and my girlfriend asked me to paint the Warlord dwarfettes for her).

My final 0.02€ on the subject

[longfang]

Now hold on guys there is potential of a sort. If you don't like the nakedness of them then get the green stuff out and get sculpting clothing and armour. Some of the poses are totally wrong for bloodbowl, even the kicking one. But some could be used. Get ride of the sex, pose for more agression. Lack of armour is not the problem.