A Call for Calm

[Joemanji]

If TFF was better then perhaps they wouldn't need to, or at least we could split our time more evenly between TFF and our 'local' forum. Classic example : this topic was fine to begin with but has degenerated. It should have been moderated (i.e. guided) but the only moderation presence here is yet another snide attempt to score points.

[Bob Bifford]

I have not long renewed for the 2nd time my NAF membership just before playing in the Albion Coast Cup and i have to say i probably looked at the web site a few times.

I find the forums to messy never find what im trying to find seems all over the place.

The things what i would love there forgive me if you do have these things like i said i find the forums there messy and just give up searching is -

Be able to post team rosters and edit them and also have it so none paying members can do the same and beable to view each others rosters reason for this would be handy for my local gaming club.

Be able to run a league from NAF web site that none paying members can also join it (These leagues will NOT goto NAF rankings) this also would help alot and gain more interest from people in my local club.

I know you can host your own league but thats to difficult for some one like me i tried it before paid for every thing and some one kind on these forums set it up for me but i had to keep bugging him to do things for me and it just took to long so scrapped the whole thing.

If you can do these couple of things over at NAF i know for one i would be on the site alot more.


Oh one more thing still not received my gift for renewing membership or dont you get any thing any more?

[sann0638]

It does seem that some more active moderation might be good on threads like this, but it is quite labour intensive I guess. Bob you should get some dice. Email nafmembership@hotmail.co.uk.

[SinisterDexter]

AusBowl is a forum for Australian and New Zealand coaches. It has sub-forums for almost every tournament and league in our part of the world. It also practically never requires moderation (at least, I can't remember a topic that has ever been closed or moderated for member dispute).

For those two reasons alone it will, and should, remain independent from TFF.

Also, I'm not entirely sure how long TFF has been around, but I would hazard a guess that AusBowl has been around for a roughly similar length of time (keeping in mind that the current site is not the original - AusBowl was set up as a sister-forum to WargamerAU when it was originally created).

I've avoided wading back into this crapstorm because it is just depressing. I am personally very worried for the future of the game, moreso given the state of discussion amongst those here. I am slightly mollified by comments made by Geggster and Lycos, but I, like many others, want to see action before believing it.

And, yes, I began the poll on AusBowl about what we, as a community (and, to be quite frank, a very tightly knit community despite the vast distances we are spread across) should do in response to recent incidents. This was done, not specifically to begin any kind of negative action against the NAF, but to find out what our community was feeling (instead of, for example, just throwing around impotent ideas without any understanding of the level of support for them). As it turns out, the local community is actually very supportive of the NAF, but we'd like more direct input in the way funding from our region is used and would like to supplement the current situation with local assistance and resources (at least, that's how I read the poll and thread results). I fail to see how this is threatening to either the NAF or other international coaches with no vested interest in our region.

Personally, while I'd really like to see a statement of intent from the NAF that is then backed up by regular, specific updates on progress towards it (I am less worried about the content of that statement as I am about demonstrated progress), I will likely continue to support it financially anyway. As many have pointed out, it is a small amount and there is an important ideal behind it. But I will also support a local organisation because 1) I trust those within my community more than I trust the NAF, 2) I have seen what Australasian coaches can do when we work together and it inspires me, and 3) without real global leadership from the NAF, a local group is much more efficient at on-the-ground development.

[Jonny_P]

nonumber, you do realise that the US BB guys hang out on the Zlurpee forums, Spanish BB players have their own forum, etc.

I don't think forcing everyone onto one forum is necessary.

Olaf the Stout

Agreed Olaf. There are always going to be local/regional forums. Even here within the USA. We don't assume the Zlurpee Boards cover the whole country... it's really just the midwestern states....with a few 'outsiders' dropping in from time to time. There are boards on the west coast (Fabbl), on the east coast (dorkamorka)....and 10 more I don't even know about.

Many people prefer to post on a board with their real life friends. For example, when I have something to say about the Chaos Cup I'll post it on NAF and TFF because I want visibility... but 99% of my other posts: trash talking, league info, local feedback, random thoughts, are all going to be on my local/regional forum.

[daloonieshaman]

and the thought canceling the long running "The Guiding Light" will make a lot of the drama go away.

*The Guiding Light was a US daytime trashy soap opera aimed at women*

[siggyllama]

This whole episode has been fascinating (when not irritating) for so many reasons. I'd love to explore them in detail[1], but instead I'll try to make a general observation in the hopes of moving the discussion forward.

We're all here because we enjoy the game. (Lord I hope so; if not, please consult your therapist!) The game was offered to us (by Jervis/GW/BBRC) as an entertainment, and we accept that offer because it works for us. It does indeed entertain, so we spend our time and money on it.

Some subset of "we" then went on to create BB7's, Dungeonbowl, Streetball, NTBB, and countless home-ruled variants. Each of these satisfies the desires of some subset of the Blood Bowl community; it offers something they enjoy, so they enjoy it. Most of the BB community doesn't play them, and that's perfectly okay. There are countless variants that people created and nobody played them because nobody wanted them. That's also okay. If it didn't offer something to the community, then it died on the vine. None of these sub-communities harmed the core game of BB in any way.

Now there may be a community out there that only plays BB7s. If you went and told them they need to play the same BB version everyone else is playing, or that they're being daft and selfish by doing what they enjoy best, you would be laughed out of the room, and rightly so. It's pure hubris (not to mention hegemony) to think you can tell other people that they're not enjoying themselves the right way.

We overwhelmingly play with CRP rules because it offers something we want: I can sit down with almost anyone from anywhere in the world, and we both know what the Wood Elf Catcher can do. I joined NAF so I can remember what I did in the 2-3 tournaments I attend each year, and so I can see what my friends/opponents have been doing in their tournaments. I come to TFF to see what awesome modeling people do, or because I'm pooping and Tapatalk makes it easy to browse and you guys can be fairly entertaining. If you tried to tell me that I need to play CRP+ rules[2], or that I need to read the NAF forums, or that I need to do anything else, I would laugh you out of the room.

Here's how you get people to play in your sandbox:
1. Make something that fulfills their idea of fun.
2. Make it cost time/money they're willing to spend. (If TFF weren't compatible with Tapatalk, which is free and easy, I wouldn't know this thread exists.)

Here's what won't work:
1. Tell people they have no reason to play in other sandboxes.
2.. Convince people they need something they neither need nor want. (You can do this, but you need millions of dollars. You don't have millions of dollars.)

Is it really any more complicated than that?


[1] Okay I'll indulge myself a tiny bit: it's amazing how many people don't know what "clique" means. It's a community marked by being both small and exclusive. It does not imply conspiracy, authoritarian control of every member's actions, or anything else. It could just be an especially tight-knit group. (I frankly don't care if there is a clique or not (odds are there is), nor do I know or care to know who is allegedly in it, since I don't feel affected by it one way or another. People can organize themselves however they choose. That's really my point here! (Damn, shouldn't bury my point in a footnote, and in a parenthetical at that. Learn how to write!))

[2] Disclosure: I do in fact play CRP+, in my league. When I go to tournaments, I don't expect anyone else to, and I don't try to convince them either. And somehow this causes no problems.

[VoodooMike]

There are a lot of things the NAF will never be able to address for the community on AusBowl.

This is completely false. It is never impossible for something to NEVER be able to give you waht something else does. It's certainly possible that it CURRENTLY doesn't... the NAF currently doesn't address a lot of things for a lot of BB community members, but it could. AusBowl is a well-established community, but in terms of BB itself, it is not doing anything that anyone else couldn't do. The same is true of TFF... and the NAF.

If Australasian players are concerned about their voice not being heard, or a lack of awareness of some kind, then why are they operating a seperate board?

I get the impression they're saying they want to be heard if they're going to support the NAF. As for "why operate a separate board" I imagine the mindset is "if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself". [Deleted ADMIN]

Why are there ANY seperate boards for Blood Bowl? Aside from individual leagues maybe. We're a cult following. We play a tiny, unique and almost unknown game. Dividing ourselves doesn't really make sense to me because the idea pool is already quite small.

Maybe because there's no central body behind which everyone can agree to get behind? There's no charismatic leader at the head of this "cult" that everybody agrees is wonderful and should be followed - there's no central body that is the de facto leadership for the global community of players. It's almost like that's something people would like the NAF to be, but it isn't. Whether we can say "yet" or not, remains to be seen.

I'm one of the people that never knew Ausbowl existed. Why is it there? Why aren't Australasian Blood Bowl players coming to TFF on a regular basis to throw ideas back and forth or to raise questions with the rest of us? I'm sorry but I don't see the logic in operating your own seperate board and getting wound up because we won't come to you.

All of your confusion seems to revolve around this idea that TFF is BB. It's not. It's a forum like any other, and it has its own issues... some of them quite ironic, such as requiring people become members to read many of the sections of the forum (they don't have to pay, but forcing people to sign up to be able to READ is always a stupid idea). The same question can be asked in return: why aren't people going to the ausbowl site to throw ideas back and forth? Why do they have to come here?

Merge the forums. It's not like its hard. Then we've got a bigger, better, international Blood Bowl community. How can anyone be against that??

With whom in charge of everything? Which vision for the future gets followed? [Deleted admin]

The "cliquey-ness"? There is no clique. I know that's a cherished illusion that many people are going to find hard to part with but there just isn't a clique. Most of the individuals typically accused of being in said clique I speak to on a regular basis and never once have felt any sense of exclusion.

[Deleted admin]

As a new player to BB and someone who's spent more years than I care to remember running some pretty massive tourneys for other systems and doing my not insignificant best to promote this hobby, this debate makes me wonder what I've stepped in by deciding to play BB.

Really? The arguments on a forum are making you wonder if it was a good idea to play a board game? [Deleted admin] I honesly cannot imagine why the clash of personalities on the internet would, in any way, affect your real-world league or tournament play. Play the game if you enjoy the game. Don't play it if you don't enjoy the game. If you don't like the state of the internet community, step in and make it different.

I don't think forcing everyone onto one forum is necessary.

I don't think forcing anyone to do anything is necessary. I think of someone creates a centralized resource that everyone uses and enjoys, it will result in everybody using it and gravitating toward one forum. If nobody can do that then there isn't one forum that deserves to be that.

[Mod deleted]

But I will also support a local organisation because 1) I trust those within my community more than I trust the NAF, 2) I have seen what Australasian coaches can do when we work together and it inspires me, and 3) without real global leadership from the NAF, a local group is much more efficient at on-the-ground development.

[Mod deleted]Points 1 and 3 are at the core of the NAF issue. From everything I've seen, people love the idea of the NAF - not simply what it has been, but what it could be... that said, almost nobody actually believes the NAF has it in them to be that, currently, and certainly not that it IS that.

It seems to me (and lets face it, I'm not the ultimate authority on this matter) that what the NAF should be doing is focusing on re-establishing (or just establishing itself for the first time) as a useful, trusted, central source for all things BB. The focus NAF seems to have is "how do we continue to get people's $15 membership fee?" by focusing on asking people what it'll take to get them to pay it. People will support an organization that they trust and find useful just as they currently do with their local organizations... and people would love there to be a global organization that they can get behind like the do their local groups.

[sann0638]

Time for another new subject title...

[Maverick]

Fishfingers and custard?

[VoodooMike]

[Deleted admin]

[voyagers_uk]

Enough!

Jeez you guys just cannot post responsibly

Quit the personal attacks

Mike I have pm'd you, you should follow my advice


For now this thread is locked. Start another but if it follows this trend it will get locked down too

After review by an Admin/Moderator team this thread has been edited to remove inappropriate language and behaviour. This website has members classified as minors so whilst members can freely discuss topics within the boundaries set by the forum management. Any restrictions on free speech are set to protect the majority and limits to expression of emotion will follow the same basic code of conduct.

Behave, my 7 year old reads this site and I will not tolerate abuse or the pursuit of abuse in the name of / hiding behind the banner of free speech

[Thadrin]

If TFF was better then perhaps they wouldn't need to, or at least we could split our time more evenly between TFF and our 'local' forum. Classic example : this topic was fine to begin with but has degenerated. It should have been moderated (i.e. guided) but the only moderation presence here is yet another snide attempt to score points.

More moderation generally brings about a response like the ones we have indeed seen, wherein the moderators and Admins get insulted and accused of all manner of abuses of power.

Once upon a time TBB, and then TFF, was a place where people could discuss stuff rationally and the level of moderation needed was minimal.
It's a shame that those days are seemingly gone.

[spubbbba]

But I will also support a local organisation because 1) I trust those within my community more than I trust the NAF, 2) I have seen what Australasian coaches can do when we work together and it inspires me, and 3) without real global leadership from the NAF, a local group is much more efficient at on-the-ground development.

[Mod deleted]Points 1 and 3 are at the core of the NAF issue. From everything I've seen, people love the idea of the NAF - not simply what it has been, but what it could be... that said, almost nobody actually believes the NAF has it in them to be that, currently, and certainly not that it IS that.

It seems to me (and lets face it, I'm not the ultimate authority on this matter) that what the NAF should be doing is focusing on re-establishing (or just establishing itself for the first time) as a useful, trusted, central source for all things BB. The focus NAF seems to have is "how do we continue to get people's $15 membership fee?" by focusing on asking people what it'll take to get them to pay it. People will support an organization that they trust and find useful just as they currently do with their local organizations... and people would love there to be a global organization that they can get behind like the do their local groups.

I wonder if it would be worth having regional NAF presidents, say for Oceania/Asia, Europe, North America and the rest of the world? Each could have a budget based on number of members from that region to be spent promoting the game in that area.

As it stands the NAF does seem very northern hemisphere and English speaking dominated. Great for those of us living in Europe as there are loads of players and tournaments over a relatively small area compared to the US or Australia. But I can see why plenty of coaches living in other areas would not see much benefit from joining the NAF and even feel they are subsidising other areas.

[snakees]

As it stands the NAF does seem very northern hemisphere and English speaking dominated. Great for those of us living in Europe as there are loads of players and tournaments over a relatively small area compared to the US or Australia. But I can see why plenty of coaches living in other areas would not see much benefit from joining the NAF and even feel they are subsidising other areas.

This discussion is only about money repartition ? Perhaps a NAF staff could show us money income and money outcome to clarify things.

Start an association and ask 10$ a year to your members and you'll see you can't do very much more than keep your website online...

I understand your feeling but seriously we are not talking about millions, it's 10$/year. If you miss player in your region, that's your job to promote Blood Bowl around you.