State of the NAFtion

[outcast]

So I think the NAF should focus on getting more people playing Blood Bowl. They can do this by putting 'How to play' guides on the NAF website (and other places, like various gaming forums), creating YouTube videos explaining how various game mechanics work, putting together demo teams to go out to gaming stores and clubs to show people how to play the game.

That's what I'd like to see from the NAF.

+1 to this. I'm a new player and although I come from a gaming background (not a GW one) I found the learning curve for BB very steep. I didn't know anyone who could teach me and the games I played with a friend to try to learn the game were so painful he gave up on it... and I nearly did, too. Fortunately, Glowworm came to the rescue (courtesy of TFF) and after a couple of TT games it all came to life and now I'm 100% hooked!

I don't think that BB is a particularly difficult game to pick up (in hindsight) but it can feel quite inaccessible if you're coming at it cold and don't know anyone who can get you started.

I haven't been around long enough to offer any strong opinions on the discussion here but anything that helps engage new players is invaluable - videos (like sann0638's BB intro), tutorials, step-by-step examples etc. on the NAF site would really help. It's very easy to lose sight of the value of this sort of material when you've been playing a game a while as it all becomes second nature.

[TheDoc]

Hi all,

After quickly reading what I have missed since I last posted (then we were talking about minis, dice and websites) this seems to have exploded into a political debate.

In my opinion though there have been problems with some of the electoral promises made e.g. the website, we have to take a big picture view here. All the committee volunteer their time. This is no mean feat as I suspect they all have families, wives, girlfriends etc and other commitments that take their time. To even run an organisation that is worldwide and try and get things produced (e.g. dice, newsletters) not to mention a world cup and NAF championship which is run without a hitch is astounding and I for one say thank you for all the hard work they put in. Would I like a new website - yeah, would I like it to have more resources - yeah, but at the end of the day this is a hobby and I am grateful for what is done.

From what I understand by speaking a few people involved with the NAF committee or are close to the committee is that the committee (especially Lycos) have done all they can repeatedly with GW to keep the relationship as good as possible. However, as has previously been pointed out GW hold the licence and the IP to the game not to mention the property rights to there flagship store in Nottingham. If they decide that NAF cannot use Bugmans and the hall for the NAF championships so be it. If they want to stop the production of the dice that is their decision too and all the NAF can do is negotiate to the best of their abilities but if GW say "NO" that is it. I am sure that Lycos and the other guys have done all they can to get BB the way we would like it.

We all want the NAF to work and be as good as it can be so instead of taking popshots at one another let's address the problems one by one and do what can be done with what we have to hand. I'll volunteer time to help and do what I can (even if it cuts into my painting schedule ).

Cheers

Ade

[spubbbba]

It seems to be a common theme cropping up here. I'm sure there's a case to be made that appearances can be deceiving, but from the outside there's no apparent NAF strategy for drawing in new blood, but instead simply servicing those already involved. This may be a conscious choice, but I do fear for the NAF's future at the heart of the hobby, to be honest (if it can be said to enjoy that recognition currently). I feel very strongly that the community as a whole would be considerably weaker without the NAF, but I also feel that it could be far more of a presence than it currently is. With the most recent [dice] developments, right now I suspect it's a case of adapt or die (if you'll excuse the pun).

Hopefully the committee will see this as an opportunity to refocus energies and take from it a new lease of life for the organisation. It gives me no pleasure to say it, but I suspect the alternative is that the organisation will dwindle into insignificance, and we'll all - members and non-members both - be poorer as a result.

To me the NAF seems to be pretty much focused solely on tabletop tournaments. That’s was all well and good 10 years ago, but it only impacts a small percentage of the community. I suspect that a considerable amount of Bloodbowl players don’t even know that the NAF exists or what it does.

For someone who won’t attend tournaments this year or who lives in a country that doesn’t offer a discount how would we sell NAF membership to them? There is the dice, but if they don’t want those then what else does being a member have to offer?

I’d certainly like to see resources directed more towards recruiting new players. With GW removing virtually all support I do think that is the loss of a key amount of advertising for the game.

[TheDoc]

To me the NAF seems to be pretty much focused solely on tabletop tournaments. That’s was all well and good 10 years ago, but it only impacts a small percentage of the community. I suspect that a considerable amount of Bloodbowl players don’t even know that the NAF exists or what it does.

There is the dice, but if they don’t want those then what else does being a member have to offer?

I’d certainly like to see resources directed more towards recruiting new players. With GW removing virtually all support I do think that is the loss of a key amount of advertising for the game.

Maybe there is an opportunity here to have a league section to the NAF site with resources for league play. There is a chance here to expand the NAF to be more inclusive for all players (TT, cyanide, Fumbbl et al.,).

I think the question about what being a member has to offer can have a counter with - What would you want from being a NAF member? This also comes back to the point of what does the NAF do? a show of value here would give clarity on what being a member gives you.

Didn't someone bring up the issue of advertising at gamesdays earlier in this thread? That would be a good way of giving new potential players the way of playing a game and getting into BB. We can also bring the advantages of what is good about BB compared to other games.

1) It is quick... only takes 1-2 hours to play (we are not talking relic/40k/bolt action here).
2) you need a max of 16 figures not a huge army to play and therefore is cost effective for people on a budget (you can buy teams from e-bay or make them from other bits if you need to)
3) It has a brilliant balance of tactics and randomness which make the game fun.
4) A wonderful background/setting which is rich and fluffy with the generation and growth of league teams allowing themes and some very light roleplaying elements.
5) You can play a variety of BB: Tournaments, leagues, one off games, not to mention the variants dungeon bowl, street bowl etc.

BB is many things to many people which makes it appealing to a lot of people. If this could be shown then I think you'd see an up turn in players. The cyanide game is also a huge opportunity to market BB as a TT game.

[generaljason]

Sorry guys a friend pointed these threads out to me earlier today so I'm coming into this late- I just finished reading them now:

A few other random thoughts from looking at it:
1000 USD spent remaking a trophy for a particular tournament? Err...

A particular tournament? It's a NAF Major dude. It's recognized by the community and the organization of being one of 5 that has a different ranking system. It's one of the 4 originals in the effen rulebook even. Just another tournament? Ridiculous.

*$1000 were used to help the Canadians recast the Major Trophy. This was discussed at some length at committee level but helping the major Canadian tournament was deemed a good use of NAF funds.

Exactly. And thanks again to Paul, Dave, d-Dave, Brendan and company for aiding us in doing that again last year. Not just an isolated weekend but one of the 5 big tournaments that are NAF's namesakes. Why wouldn't they help us?

I'm not convinced spending $1000 on a trophy for a single tournament, even a major, was a good or fair use of funds. At the very least I think the other majors should have been allotted a similar amount. The CanCon trophy (Aussie major) was made pro bono by a fan... We could do something pretty cool I guess if we had $1000 to play with, but I doubt it occurred to anyone that it was an option to pursue. This feels a bit under-the-table to be honest.

Under the table? Are you kidding? The back and forth of the Spike! trophy - losing it, trying to locate it with NAF and GW, failing that, searching for castors to reforge, fundraising, ect.. How much more forthcoming could we have been? We posted that everywhere.

We submitted invoices to the NAF as well as progress reports of pictures we were sent from the forging company. Nothing was hidden and the NAF was GREAT in helping us see this project to fruition.

But without NAF's help it's not as if we would have had a plaster of paris or paper mache trophy either. My club fundraised for 4 YEARS. We spent TWENTY-SIX-HUNDRED DOLLARS of our own money on that. We did that to raise the bar and to give back to the community as a whole something that they had lost. We certainly could have spent our own money on something else could we not? Our contribution to restoring the credibility of a NAF Major = 2 and a half times what the entire planet contributed. Treat that with the respect it deserves.

And a point of order: If the community in Germany were to fundraise over two thousand euros to create a long-overdue Dungeonbowl trophy that they had researched, redesigned and received a quote on, I'd expect NAF to help them as well in that venture because I believe it improves the credibility of the table top tournament scene as a whole. Same with the NAFC. And if the Southern Waste Scrimmage in Australia came up with a design to forge for their major, provided that they fundraised over SEVENTY percent of the funds for the trophy themselves I don't think it'd be unreasonable to ask for help for the NAF in satisfying this venture.

But if you're looking for an open-ended warrantless hand out for guys that have fundraised nothing themselves then you're dreaming and have no place to whine. NAF helped our club achieve our Spike! reforged goal because 7/10's was covered from us - it was not an empty hand out. And they based their donation on the price of the trophy after we received our final quote. They originally were going to give us half of that which of course we were grateful with either way, but based on our commitment they supported us further. Maybe if you guys showed even a tenth of that commitment they might support you too.

All due respect,
Gj.

[Virral]

Sorry guys a friend pointed these threads out to me earlier today so I'm coming into this late- I just finished reading them now:

A few other random thoughts from looking at it:
1000 USD spent remaking a trophy for a particular tournament? Err...

A particular tournament? It's a NAF Major dude. It's recognized by the community and the organization of being one of 5 that has a different ranking system. It's one of the 4 originals in the effen rulebook even. Just another tournament? Ridiculous.

Yes, it's a NAF major, I'm well aware of that. But it's also just one of hundreds of tournaments that the NAF sanctions each year. I'm not a fan of Old Boys Clubs, and I don't really think an established NAF Major deserves special treatment above and beyond the support granted to any other event. You clearly disagree, which is fine.

*$1000 were used to help the Canadians recast the Major Trophy. This was discussed at some length at committee level but helping the major Canadian tournament was deemed a good use of NAF funds.

Exactly. And thanks again to Paul, Dave, d-Dave, Brendan and company for aiding us in doing that again last year. Not just an isolated weekend but one of the 5 big tournaments that are NAF's namesakes. Why wouldn't they help us?

This just reinforces the idea that you're special and deserve more than the average tournament organiser. And apparently that's true... so I guess that's nice for you?

I'm not convinced spending $1000 on a trophy for a single tournament, even a major, was a good or fair use of funds. At the very least I think the other majors should have been allotted a similar amount. The CanCon trophy (Aussie major) was made pro bono by a fan... We could do something pretty cool I guess if we had $1000 to play with, but I doubt it occurred to anyone that it was an option to pursue. This feels a bit under-the-table to be honest.

Under the table? Are you kidding? The back and forth of the Spike! trophy - losing it, trying to locate it with NAF and GW, failing that, searching for castors to reforge, fundraising, ect.. How much more forthcoming could we have been? We posted that everywhere.

We submitted invoices to the NAF as well as progress reports of pictures we were sent from the forging company. Nothing was hidden and the NAF was GREAT in helping us see this project to fruition.

Yes please do intentionally misinterpret me in the most sensational way possible. It seems a bit under-the-table to me in that it was apparently a decision made by the Committee and I don't recall it being widely advertised at the time. There was no community consultation that I was aware of, and other areas (even other majors who should be on equal ground even by your own sense of priviledge) were not given the same opportunity to the best of my knowledge.

Perhaps you did make a big song and dance about it at the time, I have no idea. Perhaps I'm the only one on the planet who didn't know this went on. It's the first I've heard about it, from a document buried under several layers of menus that I would never have known existed if it wasn't for this thread. In a thread where we are discussing the state of NAF, and questions have been raised about it's finances. So yeah, based purely on the information available to me it sounded a touch iffy. I was hardly demanding your head on a pike.

But without NAF's help it's not as if we would have had a plaster of paris or paper mache trophy either. My club fundraised for 4 YEARS. We spent TWENTY-SIX-HUNDRED DOLLARS of our own money on that. We did that to raise the bar and to give back to the community as a whole something that they had lost. We certainly could have spent our own money on something else could we not? Our contribution to restoring the credibility of a NAF Major = 2 and a half times what the entire planet contributed. Treat that with the respect it deserves.

And a point of order: If the community in Germany were to fundraise over two thousand euros to create a long-overdue Dungeonbowl trophy that they had researched, redesigned and received a quote on, I'd expect NAF to help them as well in that venture because I believe it improves the credibility of the table top tournament scene as a whole. Same with the NAFC. And if the Southern Waste Scrimmage in Australia came up with a design to forge for their major, provided that they fundraised over SEVENTY percent of the funds for the trophy themselves I don't think it'd be unreasonable to ask for help for the NAF in satisfying this venture.

Ah, that's assuming they knew it was even an option, which I guess they might not since I know for a fact that the CanCon organisers were unaware that it might be. I think this was actually a pretty huge decision that the NAF Committee made, and if I'm honest I'm pretty shocked that *apparently* no community consultation was involved.

But if you're looking for an open-ended warrantless hand out for guys that have fundraised nothing themselves then you're dreaming and have no place to whine. NAF helped our club achieve our Spike! reforged goal because 7/10's was covered from us - it was not an empty hand out. And they based their donation on the price of the trophy after we received our final quote. They originally were going to give us half of that which of course we were grateful with either way, but based on our commitment they supported us further. Maybe if you guys showed even a tenth of that commitment they might support you too.

Wow, just wow. You clearly aren't familiar with me and that's cool, I don't spend much time here because we have our own forums. But I and plenty of others do a hell of a lot for the local community, gladly and not for any desire for personal reward. You could have come here and given a totally civil and polite explanation of the backstory I couldn't possibly have known based on the information I gleaned from that NAF financial report, but instead you came out guns blazing putting down an entire community because you clearly feel threatened and defensive about your precious trophy.

I have no problem with you, and I think it's great that you guys pulled it together and got yourselves a neat trophy. But this chip on your shoulder about how much more important you are than others because your event is deemed a "Major" is pretty sad. I'd invite you to stop by ausbowl.com some time and take a look at some of the cool stuff we've done, rather than look down your nose at us.

Out of interest, this was the last result when the Aussies got together and made ourselves a trophy, for our Ausbowl State Championships. 100% community funded, just like everything else over here.

[sann0638]

So there's lots of cool stuff happening all over the world, excellent! These are the sort of decisions that a committee is elected to make, and members are entitled to question those decisions.

As an aside, if any mods had a spare half an hour or so, it would be LOVELY to have a copy of this whole thread with the crossness removed, and even the Q&A to committee, with just the good ideas left.

[robsoma]

with all due respect virral your initial post with regard ti use of naf funds was just as pointed and hostile as jasons response. Also you have clearly made your comments without first investigating the matter. just saying.

[Olaf the Stout]

Out of interest, Virral has probably done more for the Australian BB community than the next two best people put together. So if you're going to suggest he doesn't have commitment then I'm not sure who does.

Also, the trophy shown in Virral's picture is for the AusBowl State Championships, which was held for the second time in March this year. The tournament has teams of 6 players from the states and territories in Australia (plus a team from NZ) come together and play.

There is no entry cost for those playing in the tournament so the host State (which rotates) has to raise the money for the tournament. For this year's tournament we fundraised over $3,000 to cover the costs. So Australia does know about 'commitment'.

Olaf the Stout

[Virral]

Robsoma, I think that might be a touch exaggerated given just how hostile Jason decided to be, but it's fair to say that I am not a fan of the decision so I'm sure that came through in my comments. And no, I didn't research it first, indeed I freely acknowledged that they were "random thoughts based on seeing the financials" so I think I was pretty upfront about that.

Knowing more about it doesn't change the way I feel about it one iota if that helps? I mean it's a nice story, but the underlying truth that a tournament received NAF funds to help create a trophy remains unchanged. It's not a crime to disagree with that decision, I have a right to take an interest in how NAF funds are used just as anyone else does.

I genuinely don't think it's possible to discuss this stuff without people who feel strongly about it getting offended, one way or another. I don't think I was particularly hostile, but it's one of the pitfalls of text communication that people put their own tone onto what they read. I can't help what others read into what I say, but I can tell you that it wasn't my intent and I apologise if that's how it was taken.

[Virral]

Awww Olaf, you'll make me blush

[Jonny_P]

This whole thread sucks to read.

Unfortunately, nothing positive will come out of these 14+ pages. I've been in the NAF since 2003 and rants on how to improve don't go anywhere. If you want change, run for President and make it happen. I'm not saying you can't voice your opinion as a dues-paying member, but put that effort into good use. Offer to help via a PM to NAF staff or something.

Regarding the Spike Trophy.... I completely agree with General Jason. As the Chaos Cup organizer, if Game Workshop LOST that trophy like they did the Spike, I would surely ask the NAF for support into creating a new one.

In fact, I would have probably asked the NAF to cover the costs on whole thing. Is that selfish of me?

Selfish would be me demanding a salary from NAF for all the time I've spent on organizing the US Major. What do I get out of that besides more stress?

[Darkson]

Under the table? Are you kidding? The back and forth of the Spike! trophy - losing it, trying to locate it with NAF and GW, failing that, searching for castors to reforge, fundraising, ect.. How much more forthcoming could we have been? We posted that everywhere.

We submitted invoices to the NAF as well as progress reports of pictures we were sent from the forging company. Nothing was hidden and the NAF was GREAT in helping us see this project to fruition.

As a point of order, I've just (quickly) re-read the "Reforging the Spike" thread, and while I can see mention of the NAF helping, I couldn't see mention of monetary help, or a specific amount (though I freely admit that I may have missed it).

While I don't really have an issue with the NAF doing this (I assume GW can have no claim to the actual trophy, giving it's based on their IP?), the amount does seem high, given that it was never publicly mentioned (again, that I could see).

[SinisterDexter]

Awww Olaf, you'll make me blush

He speaks truth though.

There are a number of absolutely devoted Australian coaches who selflessly run tournaments at their own expense of time and money and who have built the kind of community in Australia where many many coaches routinely travel hundreds of kilometres (that's no exaggeration, check out the geography of our country) to attend them. In Adelaide, which is probably as remote a capital city as you can imagine, 600km from Melbourne (with the exception of Perth, which is another 1000 or so km away from Adelaide in the opposite direction to Melbourne and which has a similar community), there is a bi-annual Streetbowl tournament, an annual Dungeonbowl tournament, a major tournament (the Southern Shrike Bowl) that has attracted a handful of interstate attendees every year it has run, three leagues, a probable recurring 24-hour tournament and, soon, at least one Dreadball tournament. In addition to this it was the home of BL!TZ Magazine for the short time it ran and recently hosted a team tournament with 8 teams of six from every state but Tasmania, as well as a New Zealand team (in total, including the individuals who competed in a sister tournament, this event attracted 60 coaches). This is replicated, and extended (Adelaide has a total population under 2m compared to 4 to 5m in the eastern capitals) in other locations around the country.

I say this, not to belittle the efforts of the Canadian community as I'm sure your coaches are just as committed and active, but to note that we do suffer the Tyranny of Distance being so separated from the rest of the world. Sure, when the Majors were dished out we probably didn't have this large a community, but it is still kinda disappointing that we were given a newly made-up Major and no trophy at all (heck, most people over there don't even know we host a Major) while North America got two of the big ones and were each made a proper piece of silverware. From our perspective it does seem a little bit strange that the NAF would spend such a large amount on the creation of such a trophy. I'm not necessarily saying it is wrong for them to have done so, but a right does exist for it to be questioned.

Personally I'm more concerned that it cost over 1200 (pounds/euros?) to email a document out. I may have a naive understanding of this (in which case I'm happy to be wrong), but that seems a touch excessive.

But, having now stuck my oar into a conflict I was kinda hoping to avoid, I think we all need to take one step back. We ALL evidently love playing the game, feel that the community (and the NAF) is important and have the best interests of both at heart, otherwise we wouldn't be here posting in the first place. The recent dice decision by GW is an important one and it is going to generate controversy. Arguments are valid and have a place, otherwise stagnation takes hold, but I think we need to remember that MOST of the time these arguments aren't personal and come from a sincere wish to make things better.

There is some incredibly useful stuff in this thread; great ideas, hard truths, interesting questions, new opportunities to be explored. I value the NAF and am extremely grateful for those people who keep it running (especially Babs, our hard-working Asia-Pacific rep). I also value those people who keep it robust by challenging it to perform. I think we have seen some positive changes recently (the Newsletter is great and the sponsorship deal negotiated with KR Multicase is also excellent - not sure if that was Babs or the NAF in general, but it definitely came through the NAF). There are also obviously longstanding problems that require action. If we keep our heads and don't completely alienate those people who give of their time, and if they also understand that there is some concern that should be acted upon, I think this discussion can be a net positive rather than a net negative.

[Indigo]

Virral, you're coming over extremely confrontational and more than a little like you are spoiling for a fight. Constantly. Which doesn't help you get any message over. Your tone and message has been interpreted this way by more than one person so if it's not your intent, perhaps you could consider writing your messages, cooling off, and reviewing with a calmer head? If this IS how you want to come over, well... we have a special "Pako corner", free to enter

Let's not forget the NAF committee isn't elected to hold a referendum every time a need arises to spend money. They are elected to use their judgement, not to stick up a poll every time a question is asked. They are then made accountable every few years and - lest we forget - many of the current committee have been voted in more than once.

The majors are part of the history of the game and whether or not you were around at the time is besides the point - the majority of the community to which you keep referring have already made and sustained a consensus decision. Since 2003.