The Great Roster Cull

[RogueThirteen]

I could see the reasoning for the original plans to bring in elfs and necros to replace high elves and undead respectively but found the new rosters were less interesting than the old. Before adding any new teams, dull rosters like the amazons should be totally revamped norse style.

Wait, hold thy undead horses. How are 8338 Frenzy and 4429 Stand Firm pieces less interesting and more dull than a pair of slower MB "Big Guys" and a deeper pool of ghouls?

I don't get all the people who'd prefer to keep Necro over Undead (nostalgia, maybe?), as Necro really require careful balancing of risk and reward and bring a different flavor to the game. They can play the positioning and sideline-controlling game as good as any team out there. Undead are a pale comparison and can be coached well enough by actual brainless zombies.

Similarly, I prefer High Elves to Pro Elves. Staring with Safe Throw (High Elves) actually lets a team give the passing game an honest-to-goodness go at it and as such HE serve as the passing team. Pro Elves give up a good thrower for better catchers, but Nerves of Steel is a silly skill that compensates for bad positioning. If you're passing or handing-off, you really shouldn't have either player in the exchange marked up beyond maybe a -1 (which AG4 should be able to handle anyways) unless you're already in a desperately outnumbered situation (and who wants a team that gets the most bang for their buck only when they're in the dumps?). I've never taken Nerves of Steel, nor have I ever thought "Boy, I wish this player had NoS instead of this other skill!" I will admit the starting Side Step (Pro Elf Blitzer) is great, but why not just drop Pro Elf and think about giving High Elf Blitzers Side Step (perhaps bumping them closer to the level of Dark and Wood Elves and adding further distinction between the High Elf and Dark Elf blitzers--quantity vs. quality)?


Basically, if you're going to trim the teams, I think the game would be better served by:
- Keeping Necro over Undead
- Keeping High Elf over Pro Elf

[Darkson]

Don't forget the High Elf team has had a mini-shake-up since the time the deletion was originally proposed.

[RogueThirteen]

Don't forget the High Elf team has had a mini-shake-up since the time the deletion was originally proposed.

Good point, but I still can't see why so many people seem inclined to keep the current Pro Elves and drop the current High Elves. Despite the game play points noted above, fluff concerns also ought to secure the iconic High Elves their spot as they round out the compliment of Wood and Dark elves. The generic catch-all "pro" elves seem less compelling from a fluff perspective.

[Shteve0]

Good point, but I still can't see why so many people seem inclined to keep the current Pro Elves and drop the current High Elves. Despite the game play points noted above, fluff concerns also ought to secure the iconic High Elves their spot as they round out the compliment of Wood and Dark elves. The generic catch-all "pro" elves seem less compelling from a fluff perspective.

I can only speak personally, but I find the disparity between development potential at high TV levels between, say, Humans and High Elves absolutely galling. For 20k over a human the helf lineman gets +AG and access to Agility skills. Shortened numbers don't really make up for it either, as a journeyman helf is still 6348 loner, which is ridiculous. Same applies to Skaven vs Welf. I'd much rather that the AG4 teams came with a built in levelers in the shape of weaker armour than humans and without the ability to compete with skaven for speed as standard. I don't think that's ridiculous, personally.

I think those that resist have another motive in their reluctance to dump teams like Undead (and if I had my way, Chaos and WElf) in that they're fans of those teams' sheer power level, either at low or high TV. So my suggestion would be to look at every team individually and try to rebalance with a new top power level, preferably some distance below where it currently sits. I love the game, but waiting for 1s vs elves or watching an opponent bash the crap out of your side is a little tedious, even if you win those games. I feel I'd get even more enjoyment out of it if teams were more equal around a lower power point, perhaps with a limited band of 40-60k lineman cost and stats/skills adjusted accordingly. I'd still like 20+ teams, I'd just prefer more design variety in what we get for that, rather than a whole bunch of the teams being fairly similar in effect. Holding up the difference between High and Pro elves as some sort of massive gulf in design difference demonstrates something of a paucity of imagination, as far as I'm concerned.

Finally, picking skills for most teams is pretty 'paint by numbers'. As much as I don't feel drawn to the Khorne roster, I like that you have to make very real decisions about what to take when. I think this is partly because so many teams start with relevant - rather than characterful - starting skills, and so deviating from the established pattern is too suboptimal, and because several teams start with skill access that lends them to power skills. It's really no coincidence that S-access linemen (dwarves, chaos, pact) take the Strength power skills, is it?

[Shteve0]

Saying because it’s confusing half the team should be deleted does make you a n00b though.

Perhaps so, but "stupid" is not a given. They may simply be a n00b without automatically being "stupid".

[Darkson]

I think those that resist have another motive in their reluctance to dump teams like Undead (and if I had my way, Chaos and WElf) in that they're fans of those teams' sheer power level, either at low or high TV.

Rubbish. I can't talk for anyone else, but I suck with We and Chaos, and I still don't want them removed.

[Shteve0]

I think those that resist have another motive in their reluctance to dump teams like Undead (and if I had my way, Chaos and WElf) in that they're fans of those teams' sheer power level, either at low or high TV.

Rubbish. I can't talk for anyone else, but I suck with We and Chaos, and I still don't want them removed.

Fair enough. I should have said "some of" those.

[dode74]

teams like Undead (and if I had my way, Chaos and WElf) .... those teams' sheer power level, either at low or high TV.

Just how much better do you think these teams are at low or high TV? Is this based off of data and if so from where?

[Heff]

AG4 and AV8 on most pieces is a sin. Delf and helf linos should be av7 (and cheaper) otherwise we are golden. I get accused of being a filthy hypocrite cos i play elves, but only ever pro and (the admittedly filthy) welves. And badly at that I would add.

[juck101]

AG4 and AV8 on most pieces is a sin. Delf and helf linos should be av7 (and cheaper) otherwise we are golden. I get accused of being a filthy hypocrite cos i play elves, but only ever pro and (the admittedly filthy) welves. And badly at that I would add.

But this is nonsense as they don't get strength access. Honestly can't believe this thread is still going. Squads are fine!

[Digger Goreman]

But this is nonsense as they don't get strength access. Honestly can't believe this thread is still going. Squads are fine!

By the gods that aren't! Another lord hath spake!!! But is he the real lord? Certainly he speaks with authority backed by holy writ and truth....

[Heff]

AG4 and AV8 on most pieces is a sin. Delf and helf linos should be av7 (and cheaper) otherwise we are golden. I get accused of being a filthy hypocrite cos i play elves, but only ever pro and (the admittedly filthy) welves. And badly at that I would add.

But this is nonsense as they don't get strength access. Honestly can't believe this thread is still going. Squads are fine!

Hey who is the Herald of truth round here? not YOU, I determine what is and is not nonsense
STR access has nothing to do with it. AG4 can be argued as overpowered cos it gives you +1 on all actions compared to an average player, this is HUGE. AV7 would balance it a bit. There is more to the game than access to MB. You might as well say its ridiculous because they don't have access to claw.

Drop the armour of lino elves, and tackle (and possibly thick skull) off of dwarf linemen and we are golden.

[Shteve0]

Just how much better do you think these teams are at low or high TV? Is this based off of data and if so from where?

Hi Dode,

1) that's not really what this thread is for, as per the OP
2) Why the rudeness? I don't mind for a moment my opinions being challenged, but I should appreciate a little more courtesy in your tone
3) I'd suggest you check out doubleskulls' naf win% website for lower TV levels and hitonagashi's scraping of the fumbbl data for info on higher tv level matchups

Cheers

Steve

[dode74]

Hi Shteve0

1. I don't think that questioning your assumptions is unreasonable, but it's your thread, so fair enough.
2. I certainly didn't intend to come across as rude. I apologise if it did and, reading the quote in isolation, can see how it could have. It was a genuine question.
3. I have a pretty recent FUMBBL scrape from Koadah (mid November) as well as his stats site being constantly updated. I also have 86,000 games of data from FOL (which can be downloaded here - 51MB macro-enabled Excel 2007 workbook). Both of those allow for a look at low TV as well as high TV. Doubleskulls' data I have made less use of and appear to have lost the link to. If you have it to hand I'd be delighted to take a look for myself.

On topic, I don't see an issue with the current number of rosters. Almost all of them bring something different to the table, even if only marginally so. A couple could do with tweaking (Zons would be first on my list), but I think the first thing to do is set out a framework for what we want such tweaking to achieve. Without that it's fairly pointless, imo.

[Pug]

Disclaimer revisited: Ain't none of this going to happen... ever... so get yer panties out from yer cracks and chill out.... If you do want to say something intelligent by way of constructive criticism... sure, we can talk... but if you only want to hear yerself talkin an anti-position... there are plenty of walls and mirrors in the world....

Happy-happy... joy-joy....

Bless ya Sir, made me smile!...don't touch my Flings!!