Looking for good Nurgle resources/advice

[Carnis]

Carnis - I don't think we are misunderstanding one another. It's just that I have actually tried in practice a Nurgle team without slayer skills (it appears you have not). The results surprised me and exceeded my expectations. Also, I play in an LRB6 environment (tabletop) with all races represented. I am very fortunate, as this is a lovely test environment, not slanted to any particular style of play. It may, however, be rather different from your league(s).

I suggest the only arguments that would convince you utterly would be either to try a pure Nurgle stymie strategy yourself (sounds unlikely given your views), or to play against a well-coached Nurgle team of this kind (also unlikely, as you do not appear to face any such teams). In the absence of either, I merely ask you to consider that my own practical experience of the stymie style, and my finding that (for me at least) it works better than a slayer style, may have some merit. That's all.

All the best.

I've spectated tons of games with "stymie" nurgle teams and seen them get trashed over and over in fumbbl, so that's what's my experience, I've also bashed a bunch of "stymie" nurgle teams with my own team. I don't plan to play one myself. And playing slayery doesn't really prevent me from having an AG5 pestigor so I do not think having ball handling ability and killing skills are in contradiction with each other.

What Matt says about stand firm is in my experience just not true. ;P

[sunnyside]

I've spectated tons of games with "stymie" nurgle teams and seen them get trashed over and over in fumbbl, so that's what's my experience, I've also bashed a bunch of "stymie" nurgle teams with my own team. I don't plan to play one myself. And playing slayery doesn't really prevent me from having an AG5 pestigor so I do not think having ball handling ability and killing skills are in contradiction with each other.

What Matt says about stand firm is in my experience just not true. ;P

Though you have to be careful with your own team. It's at risk, as are a number of teams, of having the advice ultimately be "roll lots of stat increases and doubles" and "roll some of them on the same players".

Now I like BB for the special rolls. It keeps the game fresh, 40k, for example has a habit in competitve play where once you find out the race you're about to play, you could more or less write down what their army will be. The special rolls mean that even teams of the same race, at the same TV, and with similar coach stretegies will tend to develop at least somewhat differently, and play differently.

More interesting is claiming to spectate stymie teams failing.

Could this be a metagame thing? Maybe Carnis is in a league with more claws than a Red Lobster and more Piling on than an Old Country Buffett, while Smeborg simply isn't?

Ok, I think I need to get some lunch....

[Smeborg]

I've spectated tons of games with "stymie" nurgle teams and seen them get trashed over and over in fumbbl, so that's what's my experience, I've also bashed a bunch of "stymie" nurgle teams with my own team.

Carnis - can you enlighten us as to what these "stymie" Nurgle teams look like (and what environment they play in)? That might help us understand Nurgle a lot better.

My own "stymie" team development plan looks like this:

Beast: B-Tackle, S-Firm (or S-Firm, B-Tackle)
Warriors: Block, S-Firm
3 Pestigor Blitzers: Wrestle, Fend, Tackle
1 Pestigor Runner (variable build)
5 Rotters: Block, Fend (or Block, F-App)
3 RRs, no AC or CL

Note that there are no slayers (no Claw, no P-On, no M-Blow other than the Beast) and no Dirty Players in the team - this is an important part of team strategy. I believe that with the sole exception of the Pestigor Runner, you cannot afford to have even one player with a non-stymie development path. This is because the stymie game works by the multiplier effect of the stymie skills - accordingly it is not a style which mixes well with other styles (in my experience). I have also found the stymie plan to be quite efficient in TV terms.

Please let us know - I would love to see the rosters, or your summary of them. And how many games (broadly speaking) is "tons"?

All the best.

[Dzerards]

I got to say I'm confused. A page back Carnis said he wasn't even sure what a Stymie team was and now he's saying he's seen loads of them!

But while I really like the ideas behind Smeborg's Nurgle Warrior build I got to say Guard and Mighty Blow have a place on these guys too in my view. Guard on top of Stand Firm and Foul Appearance is just too good to pass up and Mighty Blow is the only way to get these guys skilled up in the first place otherwise they'll be miles behind other blocker types development wise. While I plan to skill my warriors up with Block, Stand Firm, Guard and then 2 with Tentacles and 2 with Grab, barring a strength boost anywhere, I feel that if I were to give them Mighty Blow as a second skill they would be quicker getting to 51 spp than they would to 31 without MB. I might have to run the maths on that one. Though it is possible they might not make it to either milestone at all too.

Also really like the idea behind Block - Foul Appearance Rotters. I'm going to try that out myself (if any live long enough!)

[Smeborg]

Gerard - you are correct that a Warrior with M-Blow will skill up faster than one without. I have twice had Warriors with 3 skills - they went M-Blow/Claw/Block. Both died shortly after reaching their 3rd skill-up. This team, however, performed worse in results terms than the stymie ones, and also took quite a lot more CAS.

A main idea behind the stymie development plan is that it assumes players will skill up slowly (or die), therefore players need to be able to do their job well with just 1 or 2 skills (or none). A weakness of the slayer build for Nurgle (or Chaos, or Chaos Pact) players is that it takes a lot of skill advances (and by the same token is vulnerable to loss of key players). The stymie build postulates that 1 or 2 stymie skills are better than 3 or 4 slayer skills (if you find that idea interesting, there's only one way to find out...). It prioritises passive skills over active ones.

To clear up a misunderstanding - I am not an advocate of no Guard on Nurgle Warriors, I merely advocate that Guard should not be taken before the 3rd skill (because I have found in practical play that Block/S-Firm is so good).

All the best.

[Carnis]

What I said is I don't "get" the edge the "stymie teams" have. I've "got" the lack-off edge in several "stymie" style teams tho .

Beast: Block, S-Firm (19)
Warrior: Block, S-Firm (25)
Warrior: Block, S-Firm (17)
Warrior: +1ST (13)
Warrior: - (2)
Pestigor: +1AG, +1ST, Dodge, Block. S-Hands (90)
Pestigor: Wrestle, Fend, Tackle (34)
Pestigor: - (0)
Pestigor: - (0)
Rotter: Guard (10)
Rotter: - (5)
Rotter: - (5)
Rotter: - (0)
Rotter: - (0)
3 RR, 10 FF, TV 184
30,000 in treasury

All the best.

Even your own team does not comply with the requirements just posted. You only have 1 pestigor with wrestle, fend, tackle and 2 NWs with stand firm . Your 4 unskilled rotters are in violation, as well as the pestigors and the skill-less NWs . The statement seems a bit harsh, clearly your own team is a contradiction of the claim alone although it seems like a good attempt at creating a "stymie team"..

*edit - This is the statement in question: "you cannot afford to have even one player with a non-stymie development path. This is because the stymie game works by the multiplier effect of the stymie skills"

Your team has 3 players with "stymie skills" in addition to the standard block/SF (because of tents) beast.

[Smeborg]

Even your own team does not comply with the requirements just posted. You only have 1 pestigor with wrestle, fend, tackle and 2 NWs with stand firm . Your 4 unskilled rotters are in violation, as well as the pestigors and the skill-less NWs . The statement seems a bit harsh, clearly your own team is a contradiction of the claim alone although it seems like a good attempt at creating a "stymie team"..

Carnis - good question, but the stymie team plan is designed for the players to excel, whether they have 1, 2 or 3 skills, provided they are all progressing along the path (thus there will always be a maximum of stymie skills in relation to the team's TV). I do not realistically expect more than 3 skills on any Nurgle players (I have twice exceeded 3 skills on the Runner, and once on the Beast, all of these players had at least one double and at least one stat increase). However you build Nurgle, the team's development will be very uneven (in my experience). The anticipation of uneven development is a major input to the plan.

Please can we see some of the other stymie builds of which you speak?

All the best.

[Carnis]

Carnis - good question, but the stymie team plan is designed for the players to excel, whether they have 1, 2 or 3 skills, provided they are all progressing along the path (thus there will always be a maximum of stymie skills in relation to the team's TV).

Sounds like a cult, not a build . "All will be well as long as you stay on the path"

I do not realistically expect more than 3 skills on any Nurgle players (I have twice exceeded 3 skills on the Runner, and once on the Beast, all of these players had at least one double and at least one stat increase). However you build Nurgle, the team's development will be very uneven (in my experience). The anticipation of uneven development is a major input to the plan.

Please can we see some of the other stymie builds of which you speak?

All the best.

I'll head to bed and have a look into it later, but I'll try & get back to you on it..

[Smeborg]

Uneven build
------------
Readers of this thread will have seen me mention the "uneven development" of Nurgle. For me, some teams seem to skill up in a lovely even way (examples are Dark Elves, Chaos), while others skill up rather unevenly. Uneven build seems to be caused typically by a small number of factors:

- Special talents which cause specific player types to hog Star Player Points (e.g. Pro-Elf Catchers);
- Players who get SPPs but are especially prone to injury (e.g. Slann linefrogs);
- Lack of ability to control who on the team takes injury (for example low AV, or Regen instead of an Apoth);
- Wide variations in talents between player types on a team.

Nurgle seem to have a bit of all of this. The Pestigors get most of the TDs. The Rotters get some, but die (Decay, no Regen, no Apoth). Regen is a coin toss (I have been unlucky in the last 2 seasons - two thirds of Regens on dead and permanently injured players have failed). The Warriors skill up slowly at best (like Black Orcs, but at least skilled Black Orcs have the benefit of an Apoth more often than not).

In a league of any length, I think the distinction between teams that skill up evenly and unevenly is a rather important one. Other things being equal, I much prefer even development. But this is simply not available to Nurgle, therefore my Nurgle development plan assumes that skill spread on the team will always be quite uneven, and that good players will be lost. This might in itself be an argument against a slayer build for Nurgle, I suggest. A secondary benefit of the stymie development plan is that it leads to somewhat improved skill retention (but I don't want to exaggerate this benefit - I focus primarily on match results).

All the best.

[sunnyside]

Does anybody think you can sort of split the difference?

I'm interested in block/SF warriors. Because it seems like going pure slayer is something a number of other teams could do better, and I want to see if I *like* it. Adding guard after that would seem to work very well.

But I don't know about just leaving claw on the table. I was thinking of building a pair of claw weilding killers for the blitz actions. Probably trying to protect them somewhat.

So I guess stymie warriors, 2 slayer pesties, 2 runner pesties, wrestle/fend on rotters to keep 'em alive and provide some wrestle?

Or is the one thing everyone agrees on is that a blend like that doesn't work?

[Smeborg]

sunnyside - my own playing experience suggests that a "blend" does not work in the case of the Nurgle team (it may work for other teams). But at least I have tried a "pure" stymie versions of the team, so I have some sort of valid base for comparison. I would very much welcome input from others who have tried both approaches.

The common slayer players have a variety of starting characteristics that Nurgle Warriors lack (some of: AG3, MA5+, Block, Frenzy, Tackle and Jump Up). Warriors have in common with some slayers: ST4, GSM access. The Warriors make decent, but not outstanding slayer types (IMO). The lack of mobility is a problem when it comes to taking Blitzes with them. I suggest their true vocation is as Blockers rather than slayers. And I don't think their optimal development path runs parallel to Black Orcs or Chaos Warriors (although no doubt both paths would work OK in practice).

I encourage coaches to take the leap of faith that says Nurgle do not need any slayer skills. See what happens!

All the best.

[Smeborg]

WHAT IS A "STYMIE" SKILL?
---------------------------
The following distinctions may help in practical play and team development. In the context of the Nurgle team, I mean by a "stymie" skill one that does one or more of the following:

- Wastes an opposing player's action completely (by achieving a no result).
- Wastes an opposing player's action partly (second Frenzy block),
- Denies space to an opposing team by preventing a follow-up (also a partly wasted action).

The purest "stymie" skills
-----------------------
Tentacles
Stand Firm
Fend
Foul Appearance
Block

These skills all work during the opponent's turn. The counter-skills to these "stymie" skills are rare in practice (Hypno-Gaze, Juggernaut, Wrestle). There is no specific counter-skill to Foul Appearance, although it can be re-rolled with high chance of success.

Skills that look like "stymie" skills, but are not
-------------------------------------------
Tackle
Prehensile Tail
Diving Tackle
Disturbing Presence
Guard

These skills work (during your opponent's turn) by increasing turnover risk, sometimes dramatically, thereby forcing play into defined channels (including a defined order). 5 x Disturbing Presence on the starting Nurgle roster is a case in point. Builds that combine "turnover risk" skills and "stymie" skills can be very effective (example: Kroxigor with S-Firm and his Prehensile Tail). There is an important overlap between "stymie" skills and "turnover risk" skills: both tend to consume your opponent's team re-rolls.

[Note: I have deliberately left Dodge, Wrestle and Sidestep out of this schematic. Dodge may be considered a "stymie" skill when combined with others, for example Stand Firm. Wrestle and Sidestep are skills which (in the right context) invite your opponent to take an action which may make his situation worse than a no result, without necessarily increasing the risk of an immediate turnover.]

[mattgslater]

@ Sunnyside: Yes, you can split the difference. Block-SF on the first two Warriors, two Block/SF or Block/SS Pestigors by the time you get the Block/SF Warriors (Smeborg's team looks to have taken a lot of damage), SF on the Beast, and voila, stymie team. That leaves lots of room for whatever. Having just a couple killers among your Power Nine players will complement your stymie focus nicely. Also, you only really need two skills to pull it off: a blocking skill and a positioning skill. Slayers take both anyway, usually as #1 and #4-5.

Here's where Nurgle start to suck, though, by comparison to other Power Nine teams like Orcs and Chaos. Those teams have ball-games that don't focus on the Power Nine. Orcs have Throwers, Chaos have extra BMs, CDs have Hobgoblins, Lizards (okay, Power Seven) have Skinks. Nurgle have... Rotters. Also, most of those teams can start with at least eight of the Power Nine. for Nurgle, it's more like six. And lacking the lateral offensive capacity of Orcs or Chaos, Nurgle (and Chaos Dwarfs) get fewer short-clock scores and less opportunity to develop. This, along with no starting Block, means any "differentiation" on one Nurgle team vs. another is generally in just a few skills. So you really have to have a good thing going, if you want to talk about any compromise between two different "builds" or even about any one "build" as distinct from any other, other than by how the MVPs/doubles/stats/injuries are distributed.

For Orcs, Chaos Dwarfs and Chaos, though, that hybrid stymie/slayer thing works really, really well. A few hunters, a few stoppers, and generally a ton of Block/SF/MB, with just enough Guard to meet the format (or a little more for CDs).

[Ullis]

Wouldn't at least a single slayer pestigor suit the stymie style quite well. If you use him as a hunter, staying hidden behind warriors, blitzing out and back in, then the opponent can easily start keeping his AV9 players in tighter, more easily stymied, formations. Everyone knows that all dwarf and orc coaches are just big wusses at heart, unable to even contemplate the idea of losing players.

The obvious issue in terms of "pure" stymie teams discussed here is the fact that there are only 4 pestigors and Smeborg seems to advocate that the whole team has to be built in terms of stymie. But really, just using the warriors and the beast for that is quite a lot.

[Smeborg]

Wouldn't at least a single slayer pestigor suit the stymie style quite well? If you use him as a hunter, staying hidden behind warriors, blitzing out and back in, then the opponent can easily start keeping his AV9 players in tighter, more easily stymied, formations. Everyone knows that all dwarf and orc coaches are just big wusses at heart, unable to even contemplate the idea of losing players.

The obvious issue in terms of "pure" stymie teams discussed here is the fact that there are only 4 pestigors and Smeborg seems to advocate that the whole team has to be built in terms of stymie. But really, just using the warriors and the beast for that is quite a lot.

Ullis - I believe I have never had the luxury of 4 Pestigors with skill advances on a Nurgle team at the same time. I believe you need 1 Runner and 2 ball hunters (minimum). Having a 4th Pestigor in a roving slayer role is a luxury which my Nurgle teams simply don't get as far as, so I don't aspire to it. I would rather have 3 ball hunters.

Matt Slater, like you, hits one of the nails on the head in his perception that Nurgle do not have a "power nine". They have a power 5, and the Pestigors (IMO) are best left to the most active roles (ball moving, ball hunting, etc.). The Rotters do not progress beyond 2 skills (in my experience), therefore they are never going to make great ball carriers (or slayers, or whatever), whereas they make quiet but effective stymie players.

The point about the stymie game is that it works better, the more stymie skills you have on the team (within reason - you still need a minimum of skills on your fastest players to move and attack the ball - these players happen to be well suited to these roles by their Horns). Each additional stymie skill brings (say) an exponential increase in "stymieness" to the team. The stymie game is therefore best achieved by abandoning all pretension to slayer skills (in my playtesting experience in leagues and tournaments). For me, the stymie game is just a natural extrapolation from the the Nurgle roster. If you want a high ST mutant slayer team, play Chaos, they're better at it. If my posts help persuade anyone to explore the same route, that's great.

All the best.