Looking for good Nurgle resources/advice

[mattgslater]

Yeah, but of all those guys, only Ulfwerener are regularly in position to 2d a BoN. And even that takes some gaming and takes the Ulf away from what he's best at (going one-up on ST3). To be better against ST5/Dodge/SF than against ST5/Block/SF, it takes Block, (Tackle or (Frenzy+safe follow)), and net ST>5 (min ST3+Dauntless+Assist or ST4+2xAssist). Note that with Frenzy, you still need a safe follow; you just don't get to take it if the defender would rather stay in place. Safe follows for Ulfs vs. big guys are pretty darn hard to engineer, at least without a ton of unanswered Guard or a big numerical edge.

I've only seen one Dauntless/Frenzy player who wasn't a Slayer, and that guy got Dauntless as a #4 skill. Is this combo common? It seems pretty dangerous to me, like you'd want it on two different guys. Tackle/Dauntless is downright rare, except on Dwarfs really advanced Chaos Dwarfs or Norse, where it tends to crop up eventually.

Note: I'd still take Block over Dodge, because the active use of Block is better on a BoN than the active use of Dodge, even with Break Tackle, and because the passive use of either skill is probably a sufficient deterrent, or at least will be if combined with Stand Firm. But I think Dodge will stop a higher percentage of knockdowns, and in particular it will keep the other side's big guys off of him.

[Carnis]

I'm with smeborg.

Block is better, and not for the +2die blocks, but for the -2die blocks. When an opponent wants to get rid of your beast if he has block, he only needs to roll 2x 2+, to push it away (barring stand firm, or block). If your beast has dodge, it is still a 2x 2+, whilst when he has block it becomes 2x 3+ (4/9 vs 25/36, much worse odds).

If he has stand firm, then they are kind of on par, but even then block is better because it protects your beast from turnovers when it activates.

I'd probably put Guard, Tackle or Claw on Smeborg's ideal beast over PRO.

[Ulthuan_Express]

I've only seen one Dauntless/Frenzy player who wasn't a Slayer, and that guy got Dauntless as a #4 skill. Is this combo common? It seems pretty dangerous to me, like you'd want it on two different guys. Tackle/Dauntless is downright rare, except on Dwarfs really advanced Chaos Dwarfs or Norse, where it tends to crop up eventually.

All my Wardancers get Tackle as a 3rd or 4th skill, and one was fortunate enough to get Dauntless, Mighty Blow & Tackle, with Frenzy being the next in line.

Admittedly, you rarely need to use Dauntless specifically in conjunction with Tackle (Vampires with Dodge is about the only easily-accessible one I can think of off-hand), but when building a slayer, you need to be able take down everyone.

Besides, I'm more than happy to have my ST3 player with block two-dice-you-choose a Beast of Nurgle without Block, especially if I have a re-roll, as for each dice there's a 50% chance of getting the Beast on his putrid backside.

[mattgslater]

Block is better, and not for the +2die blocks, but for the -2die blocks. When an opponent wants to get rid of your beast if he has block, he only needs to roll 2x 2+, to push it away (barring stand firm, or block).

First, I'm not arguing for Dodge. I'd take Block, too. Let's get that out of the way.

There is merit in this argument if you double at 6 SPP, at least for the next 10 SPP (until you get Stand Firm, which cuts this factor off cold). Block vs. Dodge would come into play 5/24 of the time (5/6 x 9/36), and turn 3/7 (21 perms becomes 12) of pushes into nothings. That, with Foul Appearance, does kind of take away the half-die-for-a-push game.

OTOH, I have to say I think of every half-die as a little win, covered or not. Also, that's very situational. Until the BoN gets Stand Firm, you have to treat him like any other marker; it's not like you can put him on an island anyway, with Really Stupid.

No doubt, positioning skills are a very high priority with a Tentacles piece. Block alone isn't enough, though, because your real hazard (bash teams) will be able to 2d the BoN, and Block is worthless when you're getting hit by a big guy (while Dodge saves 45% of knockdowns). If I rolled doubles at 6 and 16, I'd probably take Block and Side Step rather than Block and Dodge, for that reason (that, and ST5/Tentacles/Block/MB/Sidestep gives me a peaceful, evil feeling).

All my Wardancers get Tackle as a 3rd or 4th skill, and one was fortunate enough to get Dauntless, Mighty Blow & Tackle, with Frenzy being the next in line.

If you're marking your Wardancer up on a BoN, you're taking a huge risk, and removing one of your two best players from the action. Me, I try to cover non-Block BoNs with Dodge Linos, or even better, to drive the action away from the BoN and get it in space (sometimes easier said than done). Focus on the ball-handlers.

when building a slayer, you need to be able take down everyone.

I usually use different players for that purpose. Big guy hunters and catcher hunters don't need the same things, and both have a very deep skill menu, including skills you want to build in redundancy.

Besides, I'm more than happy to have my ST3 player with block two-dice-you-choose a Beast of Nurgle without Block, especially if I have a re-roll, as for each dice there's a 50% chance of getting the Beast on his putrid backside.

Oh, man, where to start?

1) We're comparing Block vs. Dodge on the BoN, not Block vs. nothing. If you have Block and nothing else to play in, the only question you have is "how many blocking skills does my opponent have?" In strictly knockdown terms (which is all we're talking if the defender has Stand Firm and the attacker doesn't have Frenzy), the odds are exactly the same of getting a pow! as opposed to a both.

2) Block vs. Dodge (or vs. Block) is 1/3 to knockdown. And you need it on both dice, so it's 1/9. That's 5/6 of 1/9, to you. Hey, look on the bright side: you have a 5/6 of 11/36 chance to re-roll, so actually, it's [(47x5)/(36x9x6)] 235/1944! Of course, that puts you at 1/13 to TO and 25% to TRR.

3) You may be factoring in Tackle? With Tackle, you're right about the 50% per die, though really that means 25%, not 75% as your construction seems to imply. With FA, it's 5/6 of 1/4 (plus 5/6 of 11/36 of 1/4), which is a lot (2.25x) better than without Tackle. If so, remember that Block is negatable too. In fact, of all the guys you could Wrestle or Jug, the Block Beast is one of the best. His zone is more valuable than any other player's.

Once again, I'd take Block over Dodge, because I like not turning over on a Loner block. But don't kid yourself: Dodge is the defender skill, especially when you have Stand Firm.

[Smeborg]

Matt - as pointed out by Carnis, astute opponents will often take 1D or uphill blocks against the Beast, especially if they have re-rolls to burn. This avoids the trap of allowing the Beast to suck in lots of players. I'm quite happy for the Beast to be knocked down if it means my opponent has to commit 3 or 4 players for the privilege of getting a 2D block! It means the Beast is doing his job.

[mattgslater]

Again, Stand Firm and the relative value of a push are the issues. If you're playing in a perpetual format, and are sure to get two skills, SF+D is better defensively than SF+B. It really doesn't matter how many dice are involved. Without SF, the value of a push is very situational, but yeah, the Beast is just a guy (a really tough guy). It's all moot, though.

[Smeborg]

Matt - agreed, it's all moot. And to get a proper view, you really need to try each variant out in practice, which will take a long time, even at one league per year!

The Beast can vary a lot in his relative importance to the team, mainly how developed he is compared to other players. As this year I have an uber-Pest with 5 skill advances, and a ST5 Warrior as well, my current 2-skill Beast seems a lot less important than last year's, when he was the most advanced player (4-skills).

All the best.

[Carnis]

Skill pick question:

What would you guys put on my ST4/-AV/Block pestigor?

http://www.fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=t ... _id=613494
http://www.fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=p ... id=7504350

He rolled 6+4, so AV is on the table, should I pick it to negate the -AV earlier??

I was originally planning tentacles on this beastman, followed by possibly (?) foul appearance/guard to keep him alive..

[Smeborg]

Skill pick question:

What would you guys put on my ST4/-AV/Block pestigor?

http://www.fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=t ... _id=613494
http://www.fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=p ... id=7504350

He rolled 6+4, so AV is on the table, should I pick it to negate the -AV earlier??

I was originally planning tentacles on this beastman, followed by possibly (?) foul appearance/guard to keep him alive..

Hi Carnis. I would take the +1MA. I have always found +MA to be invaluable on Pestigors (MA6 is average, MA7 is fast). It combines well with his prior skill advances. Makes a good receiver or runner, too. You can consider J-Naut and S-Firm as later skills for him (her?).

[pfooti]

A general question... that I probably already know the answer to.

Imagine I have some block/stand firm nurgle warriors. Should I pick up tentacles? I find the odds of dodging away from ST4 if you're ST3 are pretty decent. OTOH, spamming tentacles all over would be pretty darn cool, and even preventing 25% of the elves from running away is pretty handy.

I'm planning out a nurgle team for my tabletop league (perpetual format, so I can develop them given patience), and I'm leaning toward a stymie style (block/standfirm) rather than a slayer style (mb/claw) for most of my NWs. I'll probably develop a slayer pestigor to chase down key players on the opposition, but I really like the idea of the FA/DP/SF combination.

[Smeborg]

A general question... that I probably already know the answer to.

Imagine I have some block/stand firm nurgle warriors. Should I pick up tentacles? I find the odds of dodging away from ST4 if you're ST3 are pretty decent. OTOH, spamming tentacles all over would be pretty darn cool, and even preventing 25% of the elves from running away is pretty handy.

I'm planning out a nurgle team for my tabletop league (perpetual format, so I can develop them given patience), and I'm leaning toward a stymie style (block/standfirm) rather than a slayer style (mb/claw) for most of my NWs. I'll probably develop a slayer pestigor to chase down key players on the opposition, but I really like the idea of the FA/DP/SF combination.

Hi pfooti - I like the Block/S-Firm combination on Nurgle Warriors, and I can confirm that it works well in practice. I am unsure of the 3rd skill pick for them (it will of course take ages for them to get to the 3rd skill). Tentacles is certainly most tempting, but so are other skills (Guard, Tackle, Grab, for example). I think the question is not clear cut. For example, in my current team, I have a ST5 Warrior. I plan to give him Tentacles next, if so, do I need more than 2 Tentacled players, given that they would both be ST5? On the other hand, like you, I dream of spammed Tentacles on all the Warriors! I like the "stymie" style for Nurgle, but I also try to develop the team in a way that works equally well against all kinds of teams. I guess there's only one way to find out...

All the best.

[mattgslater]

My planned track (theorybowl):

NW1: Block, SF, Tents
NW2: Guard, SF, Block
NW3: Block, SF, Guard
NW4: Block, SF, Guard

[Smeborg]

My planned track (theorybowl):

NW1: Block, SF, Tents
NW2: Guard, SF, Block
NW3: Block, SF, Guard
NW4: Block, SF, Guard

Matt - whenever I have given Warriors a first skill other than Block or +1St, I have not been happy with how it has turned out. Specifically, I have tried Guard/Block (never got to the second skill), and I have also tried M-Blow/Claw/Block (got there with 2 Warriors, but copped a lot of poor results along the way, one of the Warriors died immediately on reaching 3rd skill). Nurgle development is always uneven in my experience,this applies especially to the Warriors (you are at the mercy of Regen rolls). I have always had at least one rookie Warrior on the roster, IIRC, quite often two. For these reasons, I now always start with Block (unless I get +1ST), and I avoid all specialisation for the Warriors, keeping their development path the same (I am prepared to change it for the +ST cases).

I am wondering if it is appropriate for the Warriors to avoid Guard altogether, or to take it only as a late skill (4th, 5th or even 6th, which in practical terms means never). First 4 skills might be: Block/S-Firm/Tentacles/Grab. Another strong late skill contender is B-Tackle. I give Guard to the Rotters on doubles, and to the Beast as a 3rd normal skill (which often means 4th or 5th skill in practice). I am wondering if Guard might be better on Pestigors than on Warriors (say as 4th normal skill).

All the best and congrats to everybody for passing 500 posts on this thread.

[number6]

Ok so reading recent posts I see a lot of the same arguements.
I will repeat,imo take more than 1 Pestigor to begin with, and I'd recommend to not entirely specialize them. Spread the love, as they are total targets and with 8 AV and being contstantly targeted by Blitzes will eventually take some bad beats. Nurgle Warriors are not going to do much to help move the ball if tagged and the Rotters are fragile imo.


So a question. Am I choosing the wrong skill up?

I rolled Extra STR on a Nurgle Warrior with Block. However I'm finding the league to be rather effectively bashy, and yet I'm not being out-strengthed. Admitted the Extra STR seems awesome, however I felt Jump Up would be my best option. It gives my NW easy repositioning if knocked down by an opponent who does not want to base. If they want to base, I've got a 66% chance to stand up and return the blocking favor.

[sunnyside]

How about a pair of fives on a rookie Pestigor?

I'm leaning towards dodge or +MA. I'm guessing Matt would say side step, but this is a PBEM league. In theory SS is just as good, but in practice it's either slightly nerfed or you have to slow the game down to accomodate it, so it'd have to have a clear advantage.