Looking for good Nurgle resources/advice

[Carnis]

Matt - I simply don't believe in such a specialised skill development strategy for Nurgle, whether for the Pestigors or the Warriors. Both will develop at uneven rate, and some will die, or at least lurk for whole games in the dugout, leaving a lopsided team in skill terms. I prefer generic builds for 3 of the Pestigors and all of the Warriors. And maybe it's just my inept playing style, but I find that the more specialists I have, the more players I have out of position!

All the best.

My current pesties have:
1 Block/Guard/+ST (probably Frenzy or MB or tackle.. tempted with dodge & Foul appearance to preserve ST4 too..)
2 Blodge/Surehands (due to get tackle)
3 MB/Claw (getting Block, but PIon & tackle are sooo tempting..)
4 MB/Tackle (getting Block, but claw & PIon are sooo damn tempting..)

I'm not too worried about the position of my #1 or my #2. I usually keep #1 in combat every turn where he either gets a 2dieblock (doing his job), provides assists or has 6 move to reposition his guard.. Never really out of position. #2 is really versatile, but I usually keep him in reserves committing my NWs, Beast & my rotters. If the ball is loose he is out to get it and he has stolen a defensive Td countless times.

I really don't get the whole out of position argument, either you are in position to get a 2db with assists, or then you need to move in to position to assist/blitz somebody. Against elves it can sometimes be tricky if they get past you.. But elves sometimes do that and there's sometimes nothing that could prevent it if you aren't men up. Even then I don't feel the "specialists" are out of position. The only thing you need to worry about is mummies/TGs big mean big guys tagging your MB-specialists, that you do by generally targeting the closest targets & then running behind NWs ;P.

Smeborg: Do you really not believe in a ball-carrier specialist either? Your team as I recall has a +ST/+AG beastman who hogs all the SP - You don't think preparing for the odd blitz on the ballcarrier worth it (Blodge/FA/Fend/Sidestep/Surehands kind of skills)?

[mattgslater]

Matt - I simply don't believe in such a specialised skill development strategy for Nurgle, whether for the Pestigors or the Warriors. Both will develop at uneven rate, and some will die, or at least lurk for whole games in the dugout, leaving a lopsided team in skill terms. I prefer generic builds for 3 of the Pestigors and all of the Warriors. And maybe it's just my inept playing style, but I find that the more specialists I have, the more players I have out of position!

All the best.

1) The first skill is generic. The second one is either a key utility skill or provides obvious quality. Only after that do I really specialize.

2) The cure for being out of position is positioning skills. If you've spammed Block/SF, there just isn't all that much misdirection possible.

3) Unlike Carnis, I'm terrified not to take Block or Wrestle as a top-two skill with every player (except the Beast, if he doesn't double). For most players, it's #1. I might take a Guard/SF Warrior, but even then I'd probably go Guard/Block or Block/Guard instead.

[Smeborg]

[/quote]Smeborg: Do you really not believe in a ball-carrier specialist either? Your team as I recall has a +ST/+AG beastman who hogs all the SP - You don't think preparing for the odd blitz on the ballcarrier worth it (Blodge/FA/Fend/Sidestep/Surehands kind of skills)?[/quote]

Yes, of course, every team needs at least one specialist ball handler, sometimes two.

[mattgslater]

Yes, of course, every team needs at least one specialist ball handler, sometimes two.

Every Nurgle team, maybe. Dedicated ball-handlers other than passers have to make handoffs in order not to be SPP hogs, and some teams just don't have to do that. There are other ways to deal with Strip Ball, besides Sure Hands. If you can keep it to just one leaping SB'er and force a half-die, that strategy becomes a lot less effective.

Even Nurgle, though: Good positioning, Stand Firm, blocking skills, adequate TRRs, and coverage with DP and possibly Tents can make even the Woodie strip game sort of unreliable. Leaping to blitz a Nurgle Warrior with Block and Stand Firm is kind of a scary proposition, especially if you put your NW in a fence-y cage; the elf is not getting 1d, there are three ways to fail, he's probably not going to take good advantage of the loose ball unless you fail your pickup, and his Dancer is going to get knocked down and injured, one way or another, whether it takes you some number of blocks and/or a foul, or not. I'm not arguing against Sure Hands (not at all; in fact, you need to get the ball to the Warrior somehow), but there's more than one way to skin a pig, or to carry a pigskin.

With no TRR, that block on the WD is 5/81 to knock you down, and another 15/81 to strip the ball. Add it up, and it's under 25%. Throw in Wrestle, and you get another 5/36 total (almost half of that is added to strip without knockdown rather than Wrestle itself), which puts the total odds just over 1/3. A 2+ Leap with Strip Ball makes it more like 30% (25/81), or close to half with Wrestle (625/1296). Even with a TRR, assuming Leap and Strip, the odds are still not amazingly hot. If you want that strip (let's not worry about knockdown), you'll burn 3/4 (okay, 61/81) of a TRR to get 75/432 more successes. Added to 20/81, we get 545/1296, or 42%. Ug-lee, though I'll acknowledge 3/4 to take a handoff is also ugly. The one TD I got from a NW in the 5 games I played came this way against a Skaven team with some seriously scary cage-crackers (ST3/AG5/Wripball GR!).

[number6]

Obtuse posting time

So what about Frenzy?

If I get a second skill on a NW, I'm so tempted to go Frenzy. This ideally will provide more pushing or Knock-downs. Second would be Tackle, and then MB. Considering Leveling up is semi-stochastic, I figure going with solid offense is the best recourse... or at least the most entertaining

[Carnis]

Yes, of course, every team needs at least one specialist ball handler, sometimes two.

Every Nurgle team, maybe. Dedicated ball-handlers other than passers have to make handoffs in order not to be SPP hogs, and some teams just don't have to do that. There are other ways to deal with Strip Ball, besides Sure Hands. If you can keep it to just one leaping SB'er and force a half-die, that strategy becomes a lot less effective.

Even Nurgle, though: Good positioning, Stand Firm, blocking skills, adequate TRRs, and coverage with DP and possibly Tents can make even the Woodie strip game sort of unreliable. Leaping to blitz a Nurgle Warrior with Block and Stand Firm is kind of a scary proposition, especially if you put your NW in a fence-y cage;

IF you do that, the Welf won't need to leap to stop your offence. Just set up the standard 2 elfs following each other 2 squares apart & your MA4 cage won't be able to react fast enough to make any kind of realistic offensive play..

[mattgslater]

Uh, ever hear of a handoff? I do it all the time with Dwarfs, Orcs, Undead... and none of those guys have support from Extra Arms.

The one-square game is far from perfect, and I'm hardly the biggest fan. But Wood Elves are singularly bad at one-square fronting defense, and 4 turns of gobsmacking usually breaks their drive. Woodie defense works best when it does an active cracking job. Take that away, and the money quickly goes to the side with the ST and AV.

[Carnis]

The one-square game is far from perfect, and I'm hardly the biggest fan. But Wood Elves are singularly bad at one-square fronting defense, and 4 turns of gobsmacking usually breaks their drive.

Heh? REALLY? The 1000k welf team starts with 5 dodge. Combining Block, Dodge, SS on a group of 11 is perfect for 1square defence. The AG4 and 6 natural dodges in the team make it by far the best team for 1square defending.

Hand off.. Desperate play by the elf coach if he can't contain your "receiver".

[mattgslater]

Sure. Caging has drawbacks, story at 11. But every team has a way to front on cagers. At least the Wood Elf one is either expensive, squishy or ST2. And not nearly as dominant as the same team's breaking plays. Man up enough guys, get a two-fer or a Catcher with the Beast, block well, foul every chance you get, keep those nigh-automatic blitzes to 1/2-die, make 'em pay for failure, hope for the best. One advantage of Nurgle is that you get to take your own personal sideline with you, so you can take Broadway. This makes it much harder to stall a cage.

Assuming BoN doesn't go stupid, he's just doom vs. Woodie Catchers. You also need a couple Blodge-hunters, like a Wrenzy guy or some Tackle. How many depends on who plays better matchup games. A Dirty Player helps too.

Handoff? It's actually a fairly safe way to get +3MA on your last turn of a BOB run (though you have to score with a blitzer, rather than with the carrying blocker). Clear the action off one of the cage-forwards (easier done than said if it's your Guard Pest), hand off to him, and score at that guy's MA from that guy's position. Since you can move before you handoff, you can give cover to your new carrier, especially if you're doing it on T7 and will get another bite at the apple on a whiff.

I don't know what you mean about the offense reacting fast enough. Offenses don't react unless something goes wrong. If you push the cage ahead, one of four things will happen. Either a) your cage will fail to form, or b) your cage will form then get cracked on a surgical move, or c) your cage will form but you will lose the melee, or d) your cage will form and you'll win the melee (probably for a score and at least a Cas or two, and maybe several). Against Wood Elves, a) and b) are real risks; while c) could definitely happen, it's not the way to bet. That's how Orcs and Dwarfs do it.

[Carnis]

Either a) your cage will fail to form, or b) your cage will form then get cracked on a surgical move, or c) your cage will form but you will lose the melee, or d) your cage will form and you'll win the melee (probably for a score and at least a Cas or two, and maybe several). Against Wood Elves, a) and b) are real risks; while c) could definitely happen, it's not the way to bet. That's how Orcs and Dwarfs do it.

and then ofc e) Your cage will form, you will "win" the melee, but your opponent's one square defence will stall you to prevent an 8turn TD.

Happens frequently versus slow cages and 2-square apart 1square defending elves. The beast of nurgle will tie one elf catcher, sure. The elf catcher will tie up the BoN+ one assisting rotter frequently though coming out at net +1. Every time your opponents Blodge/SS stays up, your cage either a) can move 1 square while risking losing the melee b) can't move at all c) or you have to try to go around the line, and the average line is 12 squares wide when manned with 8 wood elves (3 KO/CAS).

[mattgslater]

The "two-squares-apart" term you're looking for is screen.

Your e is what I mean by c. "Losing" means not getting the TD. I guess we just have radically different experience, 'cause where I come from if the AV7 guys are fronting up on your cage, 'it 'em, then foul 'em! Grind-on-grind is a tough guy's game. If those expensive AV7 guys want to play that way, give 'em what for. Dodge might keep them up for a turn or two, but in my experience by the time non-Dancers get SS the opposition usually has lots of Tackle and Frenzy (and don't tell me you use Dancers to grind). Since those are Pest skills, it's likely that Nurgle would be no exception. Catchers aren't really good at it either, 'cause one assist from a NW means 3d, or 19/27 to get either a pow or a both-down. Eventually, a hole will open, and you'll move the cage 2, 3 or 4 squares.

One square is plenty, though, once you've got the ball into a midfield cage: if the opponent really wants to front up on you, you'll get some chains in, and the blood will start flowing. You only really need to get your forwards 5-7 squares past scrimmage, though in a perfect world you'd want to get the carrier 9 squares past scrimmage. If you do a good job of delivering the ball you'll get your cage to (or past) midfield in two turns. If you don't do a good job of delivering the ball, all a cage can do is prepare you for the scrum. If you must build a backfield cage, you also need to build a mechanism to move the ball up to the line on T2, as the line is the best cage-support you can get.

But if your armor team gets its midfield cage plodding up to the end-zone, then for Wood Elves breaking it means getting a blitz into the carrier, probably via Leap. If Wood Elves have to front your cage for more than a turn or two, and they don't suddenly break it on a freak roll, and they fail to crack it with a direct blitz, and you still don't score 90% of the time, you don't deserve your AV9. Or you're grossly outmatched against a peak team that has Blodge/SS/Fend players at seven different positions.

[mattgslater]

Hmmm... re-reading what you're saying, I'm not sure where the point of departure is. You can stall a team for two or three turns with Side Step games, I agree with that. I don't think it can often be the difference in actually slowing a cage down to the point where it can't score in 6-8, but it can keep the cage from claiming the best real-estate, get you an extra bite at the apple (especially if SS-boy gets in on the carrier), or kill a drive on a short clock. It's very good as a strategy. But usually after four turns, either the cage is busted or it's probably going to hold at least to the point of a last-minute desperation blitz, and if the grind hasn't turned to a sack in a couple turns, it's bad news for the elveses.

[Smeborg]

I remain in a state of bi-polar disorder regarding whether to develop the Beast as "active/mobile" or "passive/static".

I am trying the "static" route this season, my Beast is at 14 SPPs and has Block (next intended normal skill: S-Firm). It is of course too early at one skill to pronounce definitively, but at the moment I am inclined to prefer the "active/mobile" path (B-Tackle + Pro on doubles). This is because I find that a "passive" Beast is short-winded (he is very useful for the first couple of turns of a drive, but is easily marked out of the game after that, or loses his tackle zone with monotonous regularity). On the other hand, an "active" Beast seems to grow in strength and usefulness as the drive goes on, especially if his colleagues are struggling.

Question: has anybody had the good fortune to get 2 doubles rolls on a Beast? I can think of several obvious paths:

Block + Pro (Mr. Reliable)
Block + Claw (Who's your daddy?)
Pro + Dodge (for max mobility and cage-breaking) [Edit: with B-Tackle of course]

The last option strikes me as very good indeed, especially if combined with S-Firm. Sadly I won't get to test it this season.

[ShriekBob]

I thought people might like to know.

I am still following this thread with great interest. I've found it very useful. Very very useful.

For your interest, I just won 1-0 in the Semi Finals of the play offs of our league. Next week, the Super Bowl.

The team so far: -

Beast: Stand firm
Warriors: All have Block
Pestigor 1: Sure Hands, Block, Claw (Was going to be 2-heads, but oh god, so much AV9 in our league)
Pestigor 2: Block, Claw
Pestigor 3: Wrestle
Pestigor 4: Nothing
Rotters 1-2: Guard
Rotters: 3-4: Nothing.

So far, the beast has been thebiggest disasppointment. Everyone knows what he does, so no one runs into it.

[Smeborg]

Great stuff, ShriekBob - let us know how you get on in the final.

So far, the beast has been the biggest disappointment. Everyone knows what he does, so no one runs into it.

Sounds like a strong argument in favour of B-Tackle instead!