Looking for good Nurgle resources/advice

[Carnis]

I played a game against a human team yesterday. I'd calculated the SPP's for one of my warriors erroneously and had a skill to roll before the match. It was not ST (11 in fact) and I took Guard instead of Stand Firm. That was my second Block+Guard warrior on the team.

My impressions were that the warriors are just too slow to make optimal use of Guard. I suck at positioning Guard players but still I think that I'd be better served with Stand Firm.

What were the problems exactly?

For me the warriors generally stay in contact for the whole game, with guard maybe 2 warriors can tie 3 players instead of 2. I get outpositioned sometimes vs elves due to the slow MA, but you arent supposed to cover the pitch with the MA4 guys anyway..

[SunDevil]

What an amazing thread. It has me seriously thinking of switching one of my next season teams to Nurgle.

Smeborg! Check your PMs or PM me! I have a question for you!

"Normal" e-mail sent. I am greatly enjoying this thread, too. All the best.

Checked all my e-mail addresses and didn't see it. Which one did you write to?

I hate to be a pain but I think you'll find it worth it! Get a hold of me!

[mattgslater]

What were the problems exactly?

Guard is an awesome skill, but it's a little less awesome on a Nurgle Warrior than it is on other guys. You can't stop the bash teams from getting 2d across your line, even with all ST4/FA/Guard, unless you have some Stand Firm too. If you're not facing Grab, you can probably avoid getting chained, but that's the best you can engineer (you're all-FA, so you still have more to hope for). On your end, with all the +ST and Horns, you should be able to get every block at 2d, all the time. Really, there's no excuse for even needing more than a little Guard no matter how tough your opponent is.

Me, I'd rather be directing the action to the Warriors. I know the opponent would rather hit the guy who doesn't have ST4 and FA, so I stick the ST4/FA mofo in his face and make him wear the Warrior. What good is Guard on the guy who's taking the hit? Stick them in places where you just have to get through them, give them Block and Stand Firm, and watch hilarity ensue as the opposition completely rearranges their strategy, usually to something that's not very likely to work. Block first, but getting both makes for a game-changer. Guard is a first skill on Warrior #3, and a third skill on #2 and #4 in my book (this is what I'd replace if I were going Mighty Blow, but not for my $), plus a good #3 skill for Pests or doubles for Rotters, up to a total of two (unless I get a whole bunch of Guard Rotters somehow, but if I'm holding my breath on that it's just 'cause Rotters stink).

Let the ST3 teams obsess on Guard, and maybe the teams that can totally flood the board with it, like Orcs who don't need to spend as much on Block, don't have any Horns, do have Goblins, and can start all their S-access players. Those other guys who are loading up on Guard, they're doing it 'cause they're jealous of what you already have. Enjoy it; as Nurgle, it's the only thing you have worth envy. Except the Orcs: they're a Cadillac team that can build 50 different ways, and you just can't compare yourself to that.

[Carnis]

What were the problems exactly?

Guard is an awesome skill, but it's a little less awesome on a Nurgle Warrior than it is on other guys. You can't stop the bash teams from getting 2d across your line, even with all ST4/FA/Guard, unless you have some Stand Firm too. If you're not facing Grab, you can probably avoid getting chained, but that's the best you can engineer (you're all-FA, so you still have more to hope for). On your end, with all the +ST and Horns, you should be able to get every block at 2d, all the time. Really, there's no excuse for even needing more than a little Guard no matter how tough your opponent is.

Me, I'd rather be directing the action to the Warriors. I know the opponent would rather hit the guy who doesn't have ST4 and FA, so I stick the ST4/FA mofo in his face and make him wear the Warrior. What good is Guard on the guy who's taking the hit?

..Long that I mostly disagree with ..

Except the Orcs: they're a Cadillac team that can build 50 different ways, and you just can't compare yourself to that.

I never put my guard NWs on the line. Line is for my Guard/SF/Block beast + 2 Block/MB NWs. The corners will get blocked once, there's like a miniscule chance that something will happen, but 8 times out of 9 nothing happens and they might even get freeblocks due to FA. I never emphasise the first turn other than I don't let the opponent freely walz through onto my side & I don't concede the LOS (I put 3x FA/AV9/Block on the line). I've never feared 2d blocks on the line with nurgle, I got 3 FA there. On average there's a 48% chance they all even get to block, then there's only 55% chance of causing a Knockdown, then passing armor9 and causing a KO are even less likely.

I too, like to put FA into use, however there are several uses of guard besides getting STR advantage on the line.

Guard:
1) 2 Cage corners have to be guards against competent elves. All elves in our league build one Blodge/Strip/Leap player (not just wood elves). The counter is Blodge/SH pestigor with 2 guard cage corners.
2) Guard helps on T1 on defence, when you move your backfield NWs to the line to now help out the possibly prone Block/MB NWs.
3) Guard helps prevent S3 teams spamming Guard.
4) Guard gives you obsene amounts of extrablocks with chains (block with the guard player first, then followup, and yay you got yourself an assist.
5) Block/Guard NW with FA is supremely annoying, he must be blocked off every turn - but that always means a FA check.
6) A SF NW can be ignored, if you can bring 2 of your own guards (like every dwarf team can), or leap over him (like every elf/slann team can).

Orcs: Nurgle at high rating (2000k+) are more powerful than orcs by and large, the most obvious benefits:
1) You have universal Block coverage now too.
2) MB/Claw/horns [+PIon possibly] really really really kills AV9
3) You may be outguarded somewhat, but he is out FA'd & Dist Presenced 5-0.
4) You got regen on your best 9 players, he has apothecary on one.
5) Your Rotters are actually great liners, 5 MA cheap, good DP material and capable of elf-like dodges with Two-heads/Wrestle build
6) Horns blitzing frees one action/turn (the mandatory assist).
7) Guard spamming with Guard/SF beast, 5 FA, & equal strenght will give you obscene gameplay control.

[mattgslater]

First, before I go any farther, we're debating a pretty meager patch of territory. I don't think we're all that far apart. I like Guard on NWs, almost as much as I like Stand Firm on NWs.

I never put my guard NWs on the line. Line is for my Guard/SF/Block beast + 2 Block/MB NWs. The corners will get blocked once, there's like a miniscule chance that something will happen, but 8 times out of 9 nothing happens and they might even get freeblocks due to FA.

You don't get chained? If I didn't get a knockdown, the first thing I'd try to do against that line is Grab the NW on the end and chain him into either extra blocks or a push off the BON or the far end to reduce the odds of a counterblock off a FA whiff (or just to open up more blocks, keep that Mighty Blow on its mighty butt). On the contrary, with a speed team, I'd hedge those guys, maybe edge-marking on the LOS with some (non-Frenzy) killer type if I had one, just for a gratuitous shot on the Warrior at strong-end, or maybe with Dodge to just get off his man on a 2+/rr.

I never emphasise the first turn other than I don't let the opponent freely walz through onto my side & I don't concede the LOS (I put 3x FA/AV9/Block on the line).

Your whole emphasis on my perceived emphasis is really funny. We all play the same number of turns. "Not letting the opponent waltz onto your side" is kind of all you can do on D-setup, no? But doing it with authority wins games and earns SPP.

What you really mean is that there's a 20% chance, more-or-less, that you won't eat more than an average of 2 knockdowns off of 5 blocks. I'm tellin' ya, man, Stand Firm improves those D-line odds dramatically. Winning on the D-line is not easy, but if anyone can do it Nurgle can, and it's a huge matter.

1) 2 Cage corners have to be guards against competent elves. All elves in our league build one Blodge/Strip/Leap player (not just wood elves). The counter is Blodge/SH pestigor with 2 guard cage corners.

I agree with this. But I don't like using Warriors as far corners (too slow, too expensive to take out of the action), so I like to have a little Guard on other players too.

2) Guard helps on T1 on defence, when you move your backfield NWs to the line to now help out the possibly prone Block/MB NWs.

Except that my off-the line NWs are either fronting the cage or locking out routes. I think this is our real point of departure. Against speed teams, I like to have a couple boggers in the backfield, like the BON and my #1 NW. I keep them there against bash, too, because there's no way to keep your line clean against a gnarly team, and the BON is too expensive to leave on the LOS.

3) Guard helps prevent S3 teams spamming Guard.

Even just a little bit of Guard, just one or two, makes most S3 teams game their hits pretty carefully, with or without Guard. But Guard vs. Guard generally favors the acting player. Generally, that is.

4) Guard gives you obsene amounts of extrablocks with chains (block with the guard player first, then followup, and yay you got yourself an assist.

Sure. There are a ton of ways to do that, though, and on a high-ST team most of them are better. Stand Firm does it by keeping you in position for the next turn's blocks. Grab calls that kind of trick its stock-in-trade. Mighty Blow reduces the opponent's potential for pull-offs and counterassists. Just being smarter than the other guy will get you a fair share of locks and traps, and with all that ST you'll have 2d almost all the time. Guard helps, for sure.

5) Block/Guard NW with FA is supremely annoying, he must be blocked off every turn - but that always means a FA check.

You mean as opposed to blocking him just once, then single-marking him? 'Cause I run into that all the time. That's how you take out low-AG Guard. You edge-mark it, and make it waste time going mano-a-mano with just one guy. Or hedge him: you don't always have to mark the guy if he has to move more than one square to get into position.

6) A SF NW can be ignored, if you can bring 2 of your own guards (like every dwarf team can), or leap over him (like every elf/slann team can).

That Dwarf team just dropped two actions on a less-than 50/50 proposition, if it's so lucky. Not that even this is a gimme. If you support that SF NW properly with good marks across the rest of the pitch, that's pretty damn hard. The Guard NW can also be taken out by the Dwarf and his two buddies, too. They just have to open off the edge. The elf team, yeah, they can leap, but that's risky. Elf offenses are usually loath to leap more than one or two guys in, while if you're caging up you do need Guard, yes. See above.

Orcs: Nurgle at high rating (2000k+) are more powerful than orcs by and large, the most obvious benefits:

This is another post. I mostly agree, though.

[mattgslater]

Orcs: Nurgle at high rating (2000k+) are more powerful than orcs by and large, the most obvious benefits:

The elephant in the room is SPP development and retention. Orcs hit that 2M mark way, way faster, even if Nurgle do have a higher ceiling (on that I agree).

Orc Blitzers, the team's SPP hogs, are frickin' bulletproof. BOBs, Trolls, Throwers, Linos, (esp.) Goblins, those guys die. But the guys who get 2/3 of the TDs and half the Cas, they just keep going and going... you can't hit them, and even if you can, they're AV9, have an Apoth in waiting who doesn't see much other use, they always have Block and maybe Dodge, probably Stand Firm or Sidestep, and will totally jack you up, probably with Mighty Blow, if you don't knock them down. Their 10 buddies are also pretty tough, and if you want to deal with half of those guys you either have to dedicate your killers or spend multiple actions, or it ain't happening. There's always Claw... but in a league context that's not such a big consideration, as more than 2x Claw is pretty rare.

Pestigors are very vulnerable in the early going. AV8/Regen is harder to kill on paper than AV9, but not starting with a full compliment of positionals is a killer, and not starting with Block doesn't help. For me it's also better to have 4x +AV and an APO than 8x Regen (net; Orcs get 1x). Pestigors have the tough buddies too, and they're even tougher, but the other guys, the mobile support? Lame. Especially early-on. MA5, AV8, can't hang in, don't hit with authority, not fast enough to always be in the right place. The guys around the Orc Blitzer? Mostly other Blitzers.

Also, Orcs can play a fast scoring game right out of the box, capitalizing on an early turnover to do a little damage, put points on the board, rinse, repeat. You can throw to anybody except the Troll, so if your cage stalls out you can change direction. If you have a TRR, a TD pass to a BOB is not out of the question; you can cage him up because you can support him right, even in Week 1, so he can go into Week 2 with Block. This means more SPP later. You can't always be so bold; sometimes you need to throw to a Blitzer instead. In five games, I've gotten exactly one such drive with Nurgle. I have six improvements in five games, which from an Orc perspective is about three games.

Nurgle have zero potential as a passing team. Even the silly Chaos passing games don't work, because you don't have buildable AG3 players to spare. When Nurgle get control, you get to pick between making your one or two blocks (and maybe a foul, if you don't trust your control) for a few turns and grabbing a score that may blow up in your face and probably can't be duplicated in the remaining time. So you hold 'em, grind 'em, and if your lucky, your last three turns of blocking (5x knockdown, 'cause there are 5 standing guys) might get you 2 points on a random player. Because they have to play the grind and have no early Block, they also never get any garbage time, meaning they don't even get stupid garbage QPs at the same rate as Dwarfs!

Yeah, the ceiling is a little bit higher for Nurgle. When the smoke clears, and everybody's at peak development Orcs have +4AV spread out, a dedicated passer, an option to take stunties, 6 extra #3-5 skills (4x Block, 2x SH; Nurgle have that too now, but paid for it), and an Apoth, and is about 50k-100k cheaper (hard to say, as Orcs have a variable total cost target), while the Nurgle team has 4x Horns, 5x FA/DP, 8x Regen and 1x Tents, plus M access, which is kind of like getting a couple free doubles and some extra killer depth (very late, sorry; CDs and Chaos get Claw early, but Nurgle often have to wait). The 4xAV and an Apoth is ever-so-slightly better than the 8x Regen, but let's throw in Claws and Decay and call that mostly a wash. So that leaves 4x Horns, 5x FA/DP, 1x Tents and a couple free doubles vs. 6 skills, a dedicated passer, an option to take stunties and a 50k-100k inducement. Wow, that almost sounds like advantage: Orcs, though I'd still think peak Nurgle are maybe a tad better.

[Smeborg]

Pestigors are very vulnerable in the early going.

Pestigors are vulnerable at any stage of a league. AV8 on a Blitzer on a bash team is just not enough. Opponents will normally target the Pestigors - this seems to be a correct strategy.

[mattgslater]

On paper, they should die less and miss fewer games, taking 5/3 as much damage and converting half of it to the reserves bin. But they don't. The Orc Blitzer is harder to knock down early, and much harder to isolate, as he has three buddies. He's also so tough that he's not really worth targeting, even though he's the best guy on the roster. The Pestigor starts with none of those and can get two of them.

[Smeborg]

I think Nurgle need some Guard, the question is who and when. I think giving it to the Warriors, who skill up so slowly, is a waste. Maybe there is a workable development strategy in which you give Guard to the Pestigors?

[number6]

WOW!
I'm gonna say, I'm too tired to try to retain all that I've recently read except to say many of you are blowing my mind with stats, odds, acronyms, and other BB slang that I need a specialized dictionary to determine
I'm sure it is not beyond understanding, and is fascinating to peruse, but I'm mind boggled atm

So time for the lay-person to chime in I guess....

Regarding Sure Hands and Strip Ball. I had read earlier about how some felt Sure Hands was superior to Extra Arms and vice versa. I went Extra Arms for versatility (yes catching/passing/interceptions as an obscene option) as only one coach in my league went with Strip Ball....whom I just played. Hence why my BoN was on his Strip Ball players arse, although this player escaped the Tentacles 2 for 3 tries, much to my chagrin and to his good effect
It is a dice game though

Regarding the whole Nurgle Warriors second skill debate, my unlearned and obtuse opinion.....
Although not an Expert, the obvious is Block, although my 4th NWarrior might get Tentacles and/or Tackle as a 1st upgrade.
After that I was planning on splitting up the skills to play the 'field' or options as it were. I've got a lot of variable teams and coaching skills, but ideally will tailor my choices based on coaching ability. As the NWarriors skill up slowly, I've got time to assess my situation.
Stand Firm, Tentacles, Mighty Blow, Tackle and/or Frenzy (for 2 kicks at the can). I keep hearing about Grab, but I'd prefer to 'put the hurt' on an opponent with Frenzy

My main issue has been (capable) Agility Teams who Dodge away. I keep finding my (capable) Agility opponents try to force one side or another. So I'm thinking of going with SFirm on x2-NWarriors for the ends of the LOS. They hold the sides, while in the centre I toss in whatever variable player I need. I've never had an issue with a team trying to take the centre (to date).
However the temptation of Tackle, Tentacles, and Mighty Blow are huge draws for the other 2 NWs imho.

As for Guard, well I'll gladly leave that to my Random MVP soaking Rotters. I've played 7 games, and no injuries beyond miss the game x2 (I'll take my current luck as a sign of my future). My Rotters gotta do something beyond Disturbing Presence imo. I feel the Rotters will make good Guards.

Again, all Layman talk.

Glad this thread has some fuel, as this team is so fascinating, for so many reasons

[Carnis]

As for Guard, well I'll gladly leave that to my Random MVP soaking Rotters. I've played 7 games, and no injuries beyond miss the game x2 (I'll take my current luck as a sign of my future). My Rotters gotta do something beyond Disturbing Presence imo. I feel the Rotters will make good Guards.

No S-access on the rotters, though.

Matt: it's 9 regen, and really Claw/MB hits the orcs so hard it more than covers both the AV9 & the apoth & the 4 extra blocks. Thing is though, you gotta play other teams than orcs too.. where orcs might have advantage. Even then MB/Claw/PIon is ridiculous.. though rarely see it on nurgle.. More likely on CDs who I think are the powerhouses of perpetual leagues anyway.

[mattgslater]

@number6: Guard is a great doubles skill on a Rotter. I'd consider it as a second skill on your #2 or #3 Pestigor; with Block and either Stand Firm or Two Heads, he's pretty cool. It's good on Warriors too; I think Carnis's strategy of playing cover with Guard Warriors or running them up to the line would probably work pretty well. Even if you're following a general Block-SF strategy, go for Block-Guard on one Warrior. You'll be glad you did. He can play on the nose or in the backfield, and is good for edge-marking as part of a larger structure, particularly a more fluid cage-front, like Humans, or what you get if you lock out an elf team. By contrast, Stand Firm is what you take with Block if you're looking for player economy. Square him up on any route, and that way is verboten.

Matt: it's 9 regen, and really Claw/MB hits the orcs so hard it more than covers both the AV9 & the apoth & the 4 extra blocks.

Yes, it's 9x Regen, but only 8x net Regen, as Orcs have 1x Regen of their own. As far as claws goes, I figured we were talking about the teams in a league context, where much or most of the competition won't have any Claw at all, so only consider a small fraction of the impact of Claw on those players.

Thing is though, you gotta play other teams than orcs too.. where orcs might have advantage. Even then MB/Claw/PIon is ridiculous.. though rarely see it on nurgle.. More likely on CDs who I think are the powerhouses of perpetual leagues anyway.

Agreement there. All you can do is keep a Dirty Player for the killers, and do your damnedest to block the skill players (Hobs and BCs) so as to kill the ST equation (either by taking the +ST guy or by hitting AV7) and balance the numbers in your favor. Failing that, if the KOs start falling his way, the ability to generate a fast score really helps. Claw hits Nurgle worse, by the way. Since it's a toolbox skill, it can't be in too many places at once. The Nurgle players that you'd want to hit with Claw all cost 30k more than their Orky equivalents, and are even more crucial on the pitch. Big guys with Claw in particular generally do their thing on the same types of players on both teams, which is worse for Nurgle.

[Carnis]

Thing is though, you gotta play other teams than orcs too.. where orcs might have advantage. Even then MB/Claw/PIon is ridiculous.. though rarely see it on nurgle.. More likely on CDs who I think are the powerhouses of perpetual leagues anyway.

Agreement there. All you can do is keep a Dirty Player for the killers, and do your damnedest to block the skill players (Hobs and BCs) so as to kill the ST equation (either by taking the +ST guy or by hitting AV7) and balance the numbers in your favor. Failing that, if the KOs start falling his way, the ability to generate a fast score really helps. Claw hits Nurgle worse, by the way. Since it's a toolbox skill, it can't be in too many places at once. The Nurgle players that you'd want to hit with Claw all cost 30k more than their Orky equivalents, and are even more crucial on the pitch. Big guys with Claw in particular generally do their thing on the same types of players on both teams, which is worse for Nurgle.

I tend to look at games on a one game perspective as far as winning goes.

There for me having that 30k more expensive BOB (NW) with FA/DP/Regen means that the team is less prone to claw, especially against claw on big guys, not more. Your players are more expensive, yes, but also less likely to get blocked & knocked down due to FA. Especially big guys with CLAW are worse off vs nurgle - they have a 25/36 or 31% chance of missing a block due to Bonehead+FA & then only about 5/9 or 55% chance of causing a KD (about 38,5% in total) if they even get to make the block..

A nurgle player can usually position claw as he likes, as long as he doesn't commit to Piling on, the biggest downside of having that skill. The horns + 6 MA of pestigors is plenty for Claw/MB repositioning.

On guard in general, I agree you don't need 9 guard in a nurgle team, I just think the best place for it is on the ST4 pieces. My team has a pestigor with Block/Guard/ST too now.

BTW, where would you put frenzy in a Nurgle team?

[mattgslater]

Skill #2 on Pest #2, after Wrestle. I haven't implemented this plan, but here's what I'm planning with Pests.

1) Block, SH, SF; Retriever/winger, eventual cager vs. bash, runner vs. agility
2) Wrestle, Frenzy, SF; hunter/strong safety, eventual winger/cage-forward
3) Block, Guard, Two Heads; flanker/cage-guardian, all-around mobile assist
4) Block, MB, (Claw or Tackle); flanker/killer, eventual strong safety

Doubles: Side Step or ignore, depending on where I am in progression. Nothing else worth taking on this team, no A access or Dodge on roster, so Dodge on doubles is strictly a #3 Warrior skill (now that is a space-eater), or in some freaky alternate dimension #3 on a Beast with Block and SF in a perpetual format (that would be evil). But on a Pest? Maybe on #4, after SF or Two Heads.

For Rotters, I went with an XA guy, but I'm sorry I did. It's not that MA5 is too slow (that too), but the rest of the team has very little gratuitous comp potential anyway, because the team can't get any garbage time. Even when they win 2-0, it's still a fight to the end to keep it from being a tie. I was thinking I'd do the Chaos thing, but I don't have a Pest to spare and I can't spare a double on a Rotter for something that isn't Guard or a positioning skill, unless I'm so lucky as to get an 11 on an improvement (even then, it's just free Accurate/XA; I still can't afford to make him a true passer). I'm now firmly in the Wrestle camp with Rotters: 1) Wrestle, Tackle; 2) Kick, Block; 3) Wrestle, Claw; 4) Block, XA; 5) Wrestle, doesn't matter. On doubles, it's Guard, Two Heads. If I get two doubles on Rotters (same or different players), then I either make the second one Side Step or Stand Firm, or I usurp Pest #3 for a second Guard Rotter (even better). Instead, Pest #3 can be replaced with some special player (say, a stat increase), or a dedicated winger with Block, then SF/SS, then Tackle, Guard, MB or Grab.

[Smeborg]

Matt - I simply don't believe in such a specialised skill development strategy for Nurgle, whether for the Pestigors or the Warriors. Both will develop at uneven rate, and some will die, or at least lurk for whole games in the dugout, leaving a lopsided team in skill terms. I prefer generic builds for 3 of the Pestigors and all of the Warriors. And maybe it's just my inept playing style, but I find that the more specialists I have, the more players I have out of position!

All the best.