Looking for good Nurgle resources/advice

[mattgslater]

Being man-marked is hardly a terrible fate. "Oh, no! Don't force me to block 2d with Mighty Blow!" And it's harder than it sounds if you want it to be: up to 8 other guys are ST4 blitzing. By contrast, Break Tackle/Loner is rather risky. It's only when marked with SF/SS that you have to be concerned, and in that case the answer is having a couple Pests with safety skills (you were going to do that anyway) and taking Guard on the Beast at your convenience. Also, Stand Firm prevents 4+ Stupid tests or burned actions.

[mattgslater]

I'm leery of Break Tackle on the Beast in particular.

1) Loner + 5/6 is 50% riskier than Loner + 8/9 and 350% riskier than 26/27. Of course, it's infinitely riskier than just passing the dice to the other guy, but you have to game to like that.

2) One dodging MA4 piece is easy to game around.

3) Related, he often has to GFI. GFI with Loner sucks. 2+ RS plus 2+ Dodge plus two GFIs = 625/1296 to succeed without TRRs. That's really, really lame on a heavy team. In fact, against elves and dwarfs, the way to win is to force your opponent to roll on that kind of crap odds. Only with the elves, if it works it's a recovery or a TD, and for Dwarfs it's a bunch of knockdowns. For your four rounds of Russian Roulette, you get... a man-mark. Oh, ok, a really good man-mark.

4) Tentacles only works if he has a TZ, not if he fails a dodge or GFI.

5) Any player on the team can get a normal skill that says "I dodge on a 2!" and the others can all use TRRs without fail. Most of those players are ST4+ when blitzing and have access to a wider range of marking skills, though admittedly the Beast starts with a lead there.

[Smeborg]

number6 - your perception that B-Tackle works best against AG teams, and S-Firm against ST teams, seems correct.

Certainly against a side like Skaven, I have found B-Tackle on the Beast to be very effective.

I would encourage those who have not yet tried B-Tackle on the Beast to try it in practice. In any case, I suggest that S-Firm and B-Tackle are the best two normal skills on the Beast. We are only debating which order is best, I suspect. I don't know if there is a good answer to that question - it may well depend on the opponents you face.

[Carnis]

number6 - your perception that B-Tackle works best against AG teams, and S-Firm against ST teams, seems correct.

Certainly against a side like Skaven, I have found B-Tackle on the Beast to be very effective.

I would encourage those who have not yet tried B-Tackle on the Beast to try it in practice. In any case, I suggest that S-Firm and B-Tackle are the best two normal skills on the Beast. We are only debating which order is best, I suspect. I don't know if there is a good answer to that question - it may well depend on the opponents you face.

Oh I wouldn't touch break tackle with a stick . Taking at best a 69% chance of getting the TZ moved (disregarding using RRs due to loner).. There is ALWAYS a better move, if not you got outplayed and might as well try a 5+ dodge without BT . But that's just me!

My beast has Block/Guard/SF and is aiming for grab next skill and claw or tackle if he doubles. After Grab multipleblock and I suspect skill 6 would be piling on over break tackle, but maybe I would end up with BT cause piling on is pretty poor on a MA4 piece as well. Then again, Grab/Mblock/PO would allow me to use PO on the 2nd Mblock, so.. No BT in sight for my beast for sure!

The only reason FUMBBLers have so many break tackling big guys is the alternate skills under LRB4 are Piling on that only works on armor and multipleblock, which if used right was awesome in LRB4, but is mostly just useless. I'm glad LRB5-6 brought some leeway to S-only access players' skillpicks.

[Smeborg]

Am I the only one in the current debate who has actually given Break Tackle to a Beast of Nurgle? For my part, I am loth to argue against an interesting skill suggestion or combination unless I have tried it out in practice. So I just repeat my suggestion to others to give this handy skill a try. If you prefer Stand Firm, you can still give the Beast Break Tackle as his second normal skill. Then he becomes a much more active threat (which is the whole point of Break Tackle).

[Ullis]

I really like Break Tackle on the Beast. It's my first try ever playing Nurgle but Break Tackle seems to work great. At least compared to Stand Firm I think Break Tackle has offered more value.

I've gone games without using Break Tackle a single time but the option value of the skill is high. The TZ of the Beast on a ball carrier is usually devastating, much better than, say, a Tentacled warrior (which would need two new skills, Break Tackle and Tentacles to get there from being marked). It's a bit like Leap on the slann team. If you use it all the time you're doing it wrong. The odds, shown very well above, prove that.

Last, and not in any way to prove a point, Break Tackle is much more fun. You only get to "use" Stand Firm when an opponent blocks your Beast, whereas you get to choose the time for Break Tackle yourself.

[Smeborg]

Thanks for an informative post, Ullis. Yes, I too see Break Tackle as an "option" skill. I guess it is used on average perhaps 3 or 4 times in a game? But Stand Firm is also an "option" skill - you only get to use it if your opponent chooses to block you. Against a skilled opponent, this may also be only a few times in a game, perhaps less often than Break Tackle.

The odds of succeeding with a 2+ dodge (5/6 x 5/6) are only slightly worse than the odds of making a 2-dice block (5/6 x 8/9). The effect (putting a tackle zone on the ball carrier or lone receiver) can be much more devastating. If the Beast is unmarked, or gets lucky with a roll of 5 or 6 on his first dodge, other options become available, especially if blitzing with him. This can include short range cage breaking and the like. Since you will often use the Beast as the last (or penultimate) action of the turn, the downside risks are often small (perhaps you will free up one lineman for your opponent and concede some space if you fail).

[Ullis]

And Stand Firm only works best when you're in a good position. If your Beast is man marked and not central to the action, then it really doesn't matter if he has Stand Firm or not.

And man marking Really Stupid big guys has good value from the opponents' point of view. If the big guy wants to block, then he needs someone to help him first. Then it's still 1/6 to fail RS and even if the opponent has no skills, it's only 55% to get him down. On the other 45%, you're looking at pushing the opponent (and possibly getting more out of position if you follow) or falling down yourself. Using the blitz to free up the beast is probably one of the better case scenarios for the opponent as it eats up the blitz and the Beast can still stay in place if it fails RS.

[ShriekBob]

I just want to say a quick thank you to everyone involved here so far.

You took what was a fairly innocuous thread and have turned into a really interesting discussion on what appears to be a rather under represented team. You have simultaneously greatly improved both my understanding of the game of Blood Bowl, and greatly assisted me in my current league (which I now stand at 3wins-3draws-0losses, and 2nd in the league).

So thank you everyone involved.

[Craigtw]

Am I the only one in the current debate who has actually given Break Tackle to a Beast of Nurgle? For my part, I am loth to argue against an interesting skill suggestion or combination unless I have tried it out in practice. So I just repeat my suggestion to others to give this handy skill a try. If you prefer Stand Firm, you can still give the Beast Break Tackle as his second normal skill. Then he becomes a much more active threat (which is the whole point of Break Tackle).

Break Tackle used to be my starting skill choice for the BoN, but after getting pushed off easily one time too many, I tried Stand Firm instead. I have never looked back. I would consider Break Tackle to be a good second choice, but would make Stand Firm my #1 choice.

[mattgslater]

The odds of succeeding with a 2+ dodge (5/6 x 5/6) are only slightly worse than the odds of making a 2-dice block (5/6 x 8/9).

You may call a 50% increase in failure odds "slight" but I don't. It's about five percentage points (5/108), so for every twenty dodges you make that could have been blocks, you'll get a turnover. If that sounds underwhelming, this is a game of inches. Don't give any! Risk-aversity is the name of the game.

And Stand Firm only works best when you're in a good position. If your Beast is man marked and not central to the action, then it really doesn't matter if he has Stand Firm or not.

And man marking Really Stupid big guys has good value from the opponents' point of view. If the big guy wants to block, then he needs someone to help him first. Then it's still 1/6 to fail RS and even if the opponent has no skills, it's only 55% to get him down. On the other 45%, you're looking at pushing the opponent (and possibly getting more out of position if you follow) or falling down yourself. Using the blitz to free up the beast is probably one of the better case scenarios for the opponent as it eats up the blitz and the Beast can still stay in place if it fails RS.

Don't blitz with RS, not even in garbage time.

This all assumes that by man-marking the Beast you can force him to respond directly. If the Beast is where you want him to be (that is, if he hasn't been pushed), this is extremely difficult to pull off, unless you use multiple players, which is just fine by the Nurgle coach: if the Beast can pull off two guys, he's doing his job. I'm not talking about BT vs. nothing. I'm talking about BT vs. Stand Firm, which makes it nearly impossible to get the player alone.

I find I'm often using this guy as a pivot, keeping him near midfield. I pick an avenue and cover that with the Beast and a buddy, to prevent reversals. This way, MA4 isn't a massive issue, and once he has Stand Firm, I can let him mix it up a bit without fear of getting pushed out of position. The added advantage is that when the direction of the play changes his positioning doesn't change much, so I can frequently just do nothing and not risk a Stupid roll.

[Smeborg]

I just want to say a quick thank you to everyone involved here so far.

You took what was a fairly innocuous thread and have turned into a really interesting discussion on what appears to be a rather under represented team. You have simultaneously greatly improved both my understanding of the game of Blood Bowl, and greatly assisted me in my current league (which I now stand at 3wins-3draws-0losses, and 2nd in the league).

So thank you everyone involved.

Well, thank you, ShriekBob, for making a post which has kept an interesting discussion going for so long (267 replies and rising).

I hope as a result that Nurgle coaches will not be deterred by their first few games, and will perservere with this challenging, but appealing team.

[Smeborg]

Break Tackle used to be my starting skill choice for the BoN, but after getting pushed off easily one time too many, I tried Stand Firm instead. I have never looked back. I would consider Break Tackle to be a good second choice, but would make Stand Firm my #1 choice.

Very amusing. I did the opposite; took Stand Firm first, got fed up with being man-marked by a lino, so changed to taking Break Tackle first. I've now reverted to the first version for the sake of variety and learning.

TBH, I'm not sure which is the best first skill, but I suggest the 2 skills together are the optimum choice for the first 2 normal skills. The order you pick them in, however, does have quite big implications, not just for the interim period when you have just one skill, but for when you get (welcome) complications from doubles and stat increases. It can be a very long time before you get to that second normal skill, in my experience.

[Smeborg]

matt and Carnis - I hear your arguments loud and clear about why you think S-Firm is a good skill. That's all fine. But you seem both to be arguing not only that it is a good skill, but that it is better than B-Tackle. May I ask what have your experiences been with B-Tackle on the Beast? How did he fare?

[mattgslater]

I must confess that the math on the Beast always scared me off of Break Tackle, so I've never tried it. I got really good at freeing the Beast up to move, but I found I so often had nowhere to go without GFI'ing that I started instead working to move the action to the Beast rather than moving the Beast to the action. I've found that against agility sides it's really convenient to stick him on the DL: both the Beast and his protectors tend not to get hit by ST3 teams, and this lets me partition the backfield with authority and force dodges, using Warriors to man the strong points. Against bash teams, I let the Warriors or Rotters take the beating and use the Beast as a safety, sticking in on the cage from the front or inside. Offensively, I find myself sometimes wishing I could dodge with the Beast, but Stand Firm on a hind corner is almost as golden as Tentacles/Disturbing Presence (an evil combo when the ball is in your zone).

It's amazing what a difference two skills make. The guy looks just like a Troll in profile, but there's very little in common with usage: the Troll is there to abuse or intimidate the opposing line: you might swing him into a cage, but only after he's won his battle. He's a lousy cage-corner, or rather a BOB is a great corner so he's redundant there.