Do I need a Skaven Renegade with my Chaos Pact?

[Jimmy Fantastic]

If he got +ma he would be great, but I will never take one in any chaos pact I ever use.
They should have let you have a Gutter Runner !

[bungo_underhill]

2 AG 4 players and 3 STR 5 players avaiable on a starting team isn't really well balanced.

[Decker_cky]

While I don't think they're quite as good as another marauder....the drop in effectiveness is minimal since MA7 opens some interesting opportunities. I agree that the skaven makes for a nice backup blitzer/runner on a relatively slow team.

Plus...Pact needs 3 big guys and 3 renegades. Otherwise....it just isn't pact.

And a gutter runner would be absolutely disgusting, though giving the skaven agility access would have been interesting (though not entirely consistent )

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Well Galak has said on occasion that three extra teams were meant to be tier 1.5, inbetween most races and vampires etc. BUT the Lustria Croakers were an ordinary team, the Underworld Creepers were bad and the Chaos All-Stars were great! I would certainly not have objected to pact getting a Gutter Runner. So what if they are good. Bloodbowl is nowhere near balanced anyway.

[GalakStarscraper]

Because Blood Bowl doesn't need more Tier 1 teams in my opinion. There are not enough teams to give experienced players a challenge.

So we have 3 Tier 1.5 (50% to 40%)
1 Tier 2 (45% to 35%)
3 Tier 3 (35% to 30%)

7 teams out of 24 being a bit more of a challenge to play (ie on average winning under 50% of their games) is a good number to keep the game interesting for experienced and inexperienced players.

Galak

[mattgslater]

Bloodbowl is nowhere near balanced anyway.

Gotta disagree. Blood Bowl is far from perfectly balanced, but the balance level at the top (what really matters) is pretty solid. It's down in the lower tiers (and sorry, Tom, there are a lot of tiers, at least in practice) where the balance gets funky, and that's actually a good thing, because this game is so hard that veteran coaches need a way to handicap themselves without having to play soft.

[mrmojoz]

I would certainly not have objected to pact getting a Gutter Runner.

Ugh, terrible idea. Not only would it not fit in with the concept of the team, the rat would spend all it's time getting smushed. Almost as bad your thoughts on Nurgle teams.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Most people agreed with me in the Nurgle thread actually, if you take the time to read what they are saying. They said I was wrong but then said that they skill up slowly etc.
The concept of the team is one mans team and one team list. The skaven on the team was a lineman with 2 heads, hardly awe inspiring.
Chaos humans disliked everyone except Ogres, Trolls and Minotaurs so they are the only thing the team really needs. I know the story of Jervis wanting people to be able to use the Chaos All-Stars but I think a skaven lineman is just pointless in game terms sadly.

All these these little rules tweaks are too much in my opinion. The tier system is highly arbitrary, inaccurate in the case of humans, and no change is going to make a massive difference to the game. Seriously if pact got a DE runner and a gutter runner it would not make a lot of difference. The same as WE catchers being MA 8 or 9 or Dwarf rerolls being 40k or 50k.

[mattgslater]

I think a skaven lineman is just pointless in game terms sadly.

Then don't take one. But unless most coaches think a piece is not a good deal, it's not a big deal if some coaches think so, so long as the team can win without that piece. So you don't use that Skaven, and instead run 3 big guys and a mittful of Marauders, while somebody else plays with the Rat and the Goblin and the Elf. So? I mean, it's not like he's the centerpiece of the team. But he has something the other guys on the team don't have, and he's the same price with no killer drawbacks (sorry, man, Animosity is just a little annoying). Somebody's got to like that MA7: MA7 over MA6 on one or two players is huge. In fact, a Skaven Linerat rules over a Human Lineman the same way four Human Linemen rule over four Skaven Linerats. Keed spills, baby.

[Smeborg]

Because Blood Bowl doesn't need more Tier 1 teams in my opinion. There are not enough teams to give experienced players a challenge.

So we have 3 Tier 1.5 (50% to 40%)
1 Tier 2 (45% to 35%)
3 Tier 3 (35% to 30%)

7 teams out of 24 being a bit more of a challenge to play (ie on average winning under 50% of their games) is a good number to keep the game interesting for experienced and inexperienced players.

Galak

+1 to that. I agree we need challenging teams - otherwise there is no good reason for most experienced coaches to stay in the hobby (except perhaps for a lucky few who get to play only against opponents as experienced as themselves - but I have yet to meet someone in that category!).

By the way Galak, which are the 7 teams?

[GalakStarscraper]

I know the story of Jervis wanting people to be able to use the Chaos All-Stars

Its not a story ... it was a requirement. You make it sound like fiction ... which it is not. The team's 7 positions and the GSPM access on the Marauders are both because of Jervis's requirements for this team.

but I think a skaven lineman is just pointless in game terms sadly.

Your opinion ... you are entitled to it. However several coaches in my league have the Skaven Lineman on their CP team. So clearly many disagree with you.

All these these little rules tweaks are too much in my opinion.

Then you can be happy that there won't be anymore.

The tier system is highly arbitrary, inaccurate in the case of humans

Arbitrary? Defined numbers that used as much real world league data to see that the teams landed in them is many things ... but its not the dictionary definition of arbitray. In addition ... whether you agree or disagree ... doesn't really change the fact that in both of the years of playtest data that the Human team landed in the Tier 1 range ... bottom of it yes but in the range.

and no change is going to make a massive difference to the game. Seriously if pact got a DE runner and a gutter runner it would not make a lot of difference. The same as WE catchers being MA 8 or 9 or Dwarf rerolls being 40k or 50k.

I want to be polite here ... so I'll just keep it simple based on years of seeing the effects to the game of small changes. In my opinion, you are completely wrong and its not an opinion ... to me its just a falsehood statement.

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

+1 to that. I agree we need challenging teams - otherwise there is no good reason for most experienced coaches to stay in the hobby (except perhaps for a lucky few who get to play only against opponents as experienced as themselves - but I have yet to meet someone in that category!).

By the way Galak, which are the 7 teams?

So we have 3 Tier 1.5 (50% to 40%) - Chaos Pact, Slann, Underworld
1 Tier 2 (45% to 35%) - Vampire
3 Tier 3 (35% to 30%) - Ogre, Goblin, Halfling

[Pagan]

After my last few games my Skaven is really starting to grow on me. I'll be sad when the squishy guy gets replaced by a new, relatively fresh rat.

The one thing I'd contend in this discussion is Chaos Pact not being one of the better teams.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I didn't mean the story about Jervis was a lie, must be the overseas communication barrier.
The point about the tiers being arbitrary is the % dividers. Had you decided to make tier 1 55% plus humans would not be in it, or you could have made more tiers, or 60% plus or anything else you wanted.
Yes people disagree with me - not everyone is as good as I am, and some people like different things just based on personal preference.
I am very happy there is no more BBRC, no more pointless rules tweaks, no more warhammer teams, and it would have only taken me 1 LRB to make the game as good as LRB6 !

[Carnis]

Yes people disagree with me - not everyone is as good as I am, and some people like different things just based on personal preference.
I am very happy there is no more BBRC, no more pointless rules tweaks, no more warhammer teams, and it would have only taken me 1 LRB to make the game as good as LRB6 !

The attitude and the tone of your "voice" in this post and many others does not seem very constructive to me. What is the message you are trying to convey?